All Hail the Second Amendment

[Minimalist]

Here's another house that should not have had a gun in it.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/12/new-h...er-spirit/

New Hampshire man shoots wife to save her from ‘bipolar demons,’ then kills self to ‘join her spirit’

Certainly kept them 'safe' from criminals!



As for Canada..... a few more mass murders and Alberta can apply for statehood. They'd fit right in.

[popeyespappy]

I doubt it. Canada's gun laws are very similar to Germany's.

Yeah, no, not really. In the USA and Canada, anyone can acquire a firearm for reasons of self-defense. This is not possible in Germany.

Actually it is possible in Germany. Valid reasons for acquiring a firearm in Germany include hunting, target shooting, collection, personal protection (in exceptional circumstances) and security.

Plus German civilians have both more guns in raw numbers 25 million versus 10 million and more guns per person 30 per 100 persons versus 25 per 100 persons than Canadian civilians.

I'll ignore the fact that you didn't cite a source for those statistics for a moment and get straight to the point: How are those numbers relevant to the conversation?

How are those numbers relevant? Fucking hell, Vosur. Those numbers are what this conversation is about. The availability of firearms and the ability to use those firearms to hurt and kill people.

Despite your protests to the contrary the laws governing the acquisition and possession of firearms in Canada and Germany are very similar. Civilians in neither country have a given right to own firearms. Despite this it is possible for people in both countries to legally acquire and keep them. Both countries require a license to do so. Individuals in both countries must undergo a background check to obtain a license. I'm not sure about Germany, but in Canada you have to supply a third party reference in order to obtain a firearms license. Both countries have restrictions on the types and number of firearms as well as the type and amount of ammunition gun owners are allowed to have.

Yes there are some differences. In Canada you aren't required to provide a valid reason to possess a firearm. In Germany you are. However the valid reasons in Germany are much the same as the reasons most Canadians would own a gun. Despite this difference Germans still have a higher number of guns per population than Canadians do. So apparently having to provide a valid reason isn't really that much of an impediment to owning a gun in Germany when compared to Canada.

As far as sources go the numbers I have been using come from gunpolicy.org. An Australian site that partners with the World Health Organisation's Global Campaign for Violence Prevention and the United Nations Program of Action on small arms. The site categorizes gun regulations in both Canada and Germany as restrictive.

[Minimalist]

Another L-ARGO who tripped and killed a friend. Shit happens, eh?

Samantha Moore, 25, was shot and killed by a friend who tripped and discharged a gun while hunting, authorities said. She and her boyfriend, who had been together since the eighth-grade, got engaged two weeks earlier.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national...-1.2061519

[Tonus]

Her friend's name wouldn't happen to be Dick Cheney, would it?

[abaris]

Another L-ARGO who tripped and killed a friend. Shit happens, eh?

Besides people topping themselves with their pieces, this is one of the more common gun incidents we have here in Austria. Every year we have a couple of hunters mistaking a fellow hunter for a boar and pumping them full of lead.

Only last fall we had one of them going on a rampage, shooting several police officers before topping himself when cornered. Oh yeah, and also last year, we had some child greeting his aunt with a load to the face from his granddads shotgun when she walked through the door.

[Vosur]

Actually it is possible in Germany. Valid reasons for acquiring a firearm in Germany include hunting, target shooting, collection, personal protection (in exceptional circumstances) and security.

I didn't say that it's not possible to acquire a gun in Germany - I said it's not possible for anyone (as opposed to only security personnel and endangered people) to acquire one for self-defense.

How are those numbers relevant? Fucking hell, Vosur. Those numbers are what this conversation is about. The availability of firearms and the ability to use those firearms to hurt and kill people.

Despite your protests to the contrary the laws governing the acquisition and possession of firearms in Canada and Germany are very similar. Civilians in neither country have a given right to own firearms. Despite this it is possible for people in both countries to legally acquire and keep them. Both countries require a license to do so. Individuals in both countries must undergo a background check to obtain a license. I'm not sure about Germany, but in Canada you have to supply a third party reference in order to obtain a firearms license. Both countries have restrictions on the types and number of firearms as well as the type and amount of ammunition gun owners are allowed to have.

Yes there are some differences. In Canada you aren't required to provide a valid reason to possess a firearm. In Germany you are. However the valid reasons in Germany are much the same as the reasons most Canadians would own a gun. Despite this difference Germans still have a higher number of guns per population than Canadians do. So apparently having to provide a valid reason isn't really that much of an impediment to owning a gun in Germany when compared to Canada.

As far as sources go the numbers I have been using come from gunpolicy.org. An Australian site that partners with the World Health Organisation's Global Campaign for Violence Prevention and the United Nations Program of Action on small arms. The site categorizes gun regulations in both Canada and Germany as restrictive.

Yeah, no, those numbers are irrelevant. It's not important how many people are in possession of firearms, it's important who possesses them. If someone acquires a gun for reasons of self-defense, he will obviously be carrying it with himself almost at all times (otherwise, what's the point?). Since civilians in Germany can't get a gun for self-defense, no one other than security personnel (e.g. police and bodyguards) is walking around with them in public (hunters, collectors and people who enjoy target shooting have no reason or permission to do so). If you go through this thread and read all of the incidents that Minimalist has posted, you'll notice how many, if not most of them, could not have happened in Germany since people wouldn't have been able to carry their gun in public. Another common cause is that somebody left his gun in an unsafe place at home where it could get in the hands of, say, children who ended up accidentally shooting someone. In Germany, you are required, by law, to own a secure storing place for your firearms. Go and look through all of the news reports in this thread and tell me how many of these accidents you think would have happened in Germany. I'll wait.

Do you think it's a coincidence that Germany and countries with similar gun laws (protip: Canada's gun laws aren't similar - the absence of self-defense as a valid reason to acquire a firearm makes a huge difference) have a much lower gun crime rate compared to the US and Canada?

[Chas]

---

Actually it is possible in Germany. Valid reasons for acquiring a firearm in Germany include hunting, target shooting, collection, personal protection (in exceptional circumstances) and security.

I didn't say that it's not possible to acquire a gun in Germany - I said it's not possible for anyone (as opposed to only security personnel and endangered people) to acquire one for self-defense.

How are those numbers relevant? Fucking hell, Vosur. Those numbers are what this conversation is about. The availability of firearms and the ability to use those firearms to hurt and kill people.

Despite your protests to the contrary the laws governing the acquisition and possession of firearms in Canada and Germany are very similar. Civilians in neither country have a given right to own firearms. Despite this it is possible for people in both countries to legally acquire and keep them. Both countries require a license to do so. Individuals in both countries must undergo a background check to obtain a license. I'm not sure about Germany, but in Canada you have to supply a third party reference in order to obtain a firearms license. Both countries have restrictions on the types and number of firearms as well as the type and amount of ammunition gun owners are allowed to have.

Yes there are some differences. In Canada you aren't required to provide a valid reason to possess a firearm. In Germany you are. However the valid reasons in Germany are much the same as the reasons most Canadians would own a gun. Despite this difference Germans still have a higher number of guns per population than Canadians do. So apparently having to provide a valid reason isn't really that much of an impediment to owning a gun in Germany when compared to Canada.

As far as sources go the numbers I have been using come from gunpolicy.org. An Australian site that partners with the World Health Organisation's Global Campaign for Violence Prevention and the United Nations Program of Action on small arms. The site categorizes gun regulations in both Canada and Germany as restrictive.

Yeah, no, those numbers are irrelevant. It's not important how many people are in possession of firearms, it's important who possesses them. If someone acquires a gun for reasons of self-defense, he will obviously be carrying it with himself almost at all times (otherwise, what's the point?). Since civilians in Germany can't get a gun for self-defense, no one other than security personnel (e.g. police and bodyguards) is walking around with them in public (hunters, collectors and people who enjoy target shooting have no reason or permission to do so). If you go through this thread and read all of the incidents that Minimalist has posted, you'll notice how many, if not most of them, could not have happened in Germany since people wouldn't have been able to carry their gun in public. Another common cause is that somebody left his gun in an unsafe place at home where it could get in the hands of, say, children who ended up accidentally shooting someone. In Germany, you are required, by law, to own a secure storing place for your firearms. Go and look through all of the news reports in this thread and tell me how many of these accidents you think would have happened in Germany. I'll wait.

Do you think it's a coincidence that Germany and countries with similar gun laws (protip: Canada's gun laws aren't similar - the absence of self-defense as a valid reason to acquire a firearm makes a huge difference) have a much lower gun crime rate compared to the US and Canada?

---

Hmmm, my impression of Min's posts is that there are an awful lot that are about accidents in the home. Those are tragic, especially as they are avoidable.

The laws in Massachusetts require firearms to be secured whether in the home or in transit, unless under the control of a licensed person. Leaving a gun unattended is a crime.

[Minimalist]

Good for Massachusetts. Sadly, there are 49 other states.

And yes, Chas, you do get it. Accidents are avoidable if people are careful. The problem is that they are not.

[Chas]

Good for Massachusetts. Sadly, there are 49 other states.

And yes, Chas, you do get it. Accidents are avoidable if people are careful. The problem is that they are not.

There are too damn many sets of laws*, but several of the other states have similar laws.

But this is one area where education and training make a difference.


*But don't let a libretardian hear that.

[Minimalist]

But this is one area where education and training make a difference.

Until they make that one mistake. Once the gun fires it is luck (good or bad) which determines where the bullet goes.

ac·ci·dent
noun \ˈak-sə-dənt, -ˌdent; ˈaks-dənt\

: a sudden event (such as a crash) that is not planned or intended and that causes damage or injury

: an event that is not planned or intended : an event that occurs by chance

Merriam Webster