Okay, White 'Murrica....

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes but not all racism is equally harmful. Curiously, there are not many jokes about whites that portray negative stereotypes, such as higher than average criminal activity -

of course there are......

-they're holdovers from when certain groups of caucasians weren't considered "white" or even particularly human: the hillbilly, for example
-or current groups widely considered to be fair game for racist humor: the cracker, the redneck, for example

You have to remember that where you're from, and where we're from..aint the same place. I think the jokes are hilarious...but as you said..they are what they are. The hillbilly stereotype was intentionally created to do real and palpable harm, btw. "Fuck those hillbillys out there dying in the mines, half human maybe but mostly animals, lost on rotgut, diddling their sisters.": Let me translate that for you; "We need their resources, their labor, and their products, but don't want to extend any of this life they're losing their own to create for us -to them-".

-Sound familiar yet? Guess what, papers loved to print bigoted little cartoons depicting the stereotype and run news stories that were plainly fabricated and sensationalist to prop it up. Them boys, then, to them..weren't "white". We consider them white now...the whitest of the white even, but we still tell the jokes.....

The rednecks were striking miners FFS! Not that most people have the slightest inkling of how the term came to mean something derogatory by way of a dedicated media campaign against a group that was being bombed, by US Forces..on US soil...from the air - at the behest of Business. Of course, they were also shooting and beating them on the ground, but that was only incidental. They wouldn't stop causing a ruckus in their little company containment camps...were they were paid with company scrip.......

(As far as criminal activity goes......I think you'll find that rednecks, crackers, and "the hillbilly" are perceived rather poorly on that count as well. Drug dealers and growers, gunrunners, moonshiners, generally clanish motherfuckers that might shoot you if you wander too deep into the woods...but especially dangerous, if you got a purdy mouff)

Give you a little insight into my experience...when I do spend time in the NE US...whenever I hear someone use the word "redneck" is sounds suspsiciously like another descriptor almost synonymous with the south and meant, essentially, in entirely the same manner. No harm no foul I guess...we use those words as derogatory remarks about each other as well. LOL, doesn't this all sound so very familiar?

For transparency...I'm a hillbilly by birth - a cracker by upbringing, and a redneck by default.
(the cracker one really pisses me off, btw......how else are you supposed to herd cattle in a fucking swamp!)

[KUSA]

BLACK LIVES MATTER (LESS)

[paulpablo]

As anti-gun as I am, am I the only one thinks this guys was right to shoot an unknown person breaking into his house with guns blazing? This doesn't seem very racist. Just some trigger happy fool that freaked when the po-po raided the wrong house.

It depends on the circumstances, the police are instructed to shout and make themselves known to the occupants of the house, unfortunately though this overlooks people who might be deaf, or criminals who might just go into peoples houses shouting "POLICE POLICE."

[Davka]

I'd imagine that most black folks are pretty tired of being assumed to be X because they have dark skin. Probably a lot more tired than you are.

Tu quoque is a fallacy.

In a debate, sure. I thought this was a conversation. You seemed to be complaining about how rough you have it as a white male, what with all the unfair assumptions. I was offering some perspective, that's all.

I doubt that many people automatically assume you or I are racist simply because we're white.

It's happened to me on several occasions. I obviously don't know how many people have thought that without saying it. I know that it isn't right to make such assumptions based on skin color rather than behavior, though.

OK, now I gotta wonder why people would make that assumption. I'm 54 years old, I've lived in Hawaii, California, Israel, Tennessee, and now North Carolina, and I have never had anyone assume that I'm racist simply because I'm white. I've had interactions with black people who were somewhat guarded until they figured me out, but i cannot think of a single instance when someone automatically assumed I was a racist.

Maybe you could ask your brother-in-law if there's something about you that triggers his racism radar? Because I guarantee you, it's more than just your skin color.

You don't happen to wear a cowboy hat or feed cap, or drive a pickup with a gun rack, do you?

[Thumpalumpacus]

In a debate, sure. I thought this was a conversation. You seemed to be complaining about how rough you have it as a white male, what with all the unfair assumptions. I was offering some perspective, that's all.

It's a fallacy no matter the context. In a discussion, offering perspective is cool. The assumption that I lacked it was a little scrunchy from my perspective, but hey, I'm online, I don't expect people to be generous in their assessments.

OK, now I gotta wonder why people would make that assumption. I'm 54 years old, I've lived in Hawaii, California, Israel, Tennessee, and now North Carolina, and I have never had anyone assume that I'm racist simply because I'm white. I've had interactions with black people who were somewhat guarded until they figured me out, but i cannot think of a single instance when someone automatically assumed I was a racist.

I gave one example above, in my reply to Blackout. Here's another: I had a buddy in California, a fellow guitarist, and we used to hang out, and jam, and drink beer, and talk politics and whatnot. Once he learnt I was from Texas, he started injecting racial slurs into his speech, I mean within ten minutes, until I told him really didn't appreciate that sort of thing and please don't do it in my house.

The obvious connection he made was, white guy from the South equals racist.

Maybe you could ask your brother-in-law if there's something about you that triggers his racism radar? Because I guarantee you, it's more than just your skin color.

Why am I not surprised by this? Do you really think I haven't spoken to Al about this? And what basis do you have to offer your "guarantee", other than your own opinion?

You don't happen to wear a cowboy hat or feed cap, or drive a pickup with a gun rack, do you?

Do go on.

[Faith No More]

Feel free to elaborate it, then.

I asked if white 'Murrica can be honest. I probably should have put "with itself" at the end of it, but that doesn't take away from the fact that "white 'Murrica" was referring to the white, Fox-News-watching, racism-doesn't exist, conservative part of America. I assumed that since the word "'Murrica" is used in reference to how hyper-conservatives talk, everyone would understand that a white 'Murrican was a Fox News stereotype, not that I was saying white people can't be honest.

I know you weren't the one that said it, but I'm just flabbergasted that someone would call me a bigot over something as simple as that.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Feel free to elaborate it, then.

I asked if white 'Murrica can be honest. I probably should have put "with itself" at the end of it, but that doesn't take away from the fact that "white 'Murrica" was referring to the white, Fox-News-watching, racism-doesn't exist, conservative part of America. I assumed that since the word "'Murrica" is used in reference to how hyper-conservatives talk, everyone would understand that a white 'Murrican was a Fox News stereotype, not that I was saying white people can't be honest.

Oh, okay. I understood the implied "with itself" you mention, oddly enough, but I suppose that I've seen "'Murrica" used so often to refer to broad swathes of Americans, mainly online, that that's where I missed the nuance.

I know you weren't the one that said it, but I'm just flabbergasted that someone would call me a bigot over something as simple as that.

Yeah, I have never thought of you that way.

[Davka]

In a debate, sure. I thought this was a conversation. You seemed to be complaining about how rough you have it as a white male, what with all the unfair assumptions. I was offering some perspective, that's all.

It's a fallacy no matter the context.

I disagree.

Saying 'you do X too' can a way of pointing out hypocrisy, or lending perspective (as i tried to do here). It only becomes a fallacy when you add 'therefore it's OK for others to do X.'

I had a buddy in California, a fellow guitarist, and we used to hang out, and jam, and drink beer, and talk politics and whatnot. Once he learnt I was from Texas, he started injecting racial slurs into his speech, I mean within ten minutes, until I told him really didn't appreciate that sort of thing and please don't do it in my house.

The obvious connection he made was, white guy from the South equals racist.

Three things:

1) "White guy from Texas" is not the same as "generic white guy." Sorry, but statistics indicate that a white guy from Texas is, in fact, far more likely to be racist than a generic white guy.

2) My experience has been that white racists will sort of "feel me out" to see if I'm also a racist (aka 'one of us'). They do this with things like racist slurs and jokes. My job, as a decent human being, is to cut them short the instant they go down that road and let them know in no uncertain terms that no, I am not 'one of them.' If I say nothing, they'll assume I'm ok with their narrow-minded bigotry.

3) In the gas station example you gave Blackout, that kid was reacting to a perceived injustice. He thought he was getting cut out of his rightful place in line. Jumping from there to "it's because you're white" is not much of leap, given the likely experience he's had in his life. No doubt there have been numerous times in his life when he was treated unfairly by white people due to racism.

That doesn't mean his reaction was right - it wasn't. he needed the little lesson you gave him with the pic of your son. Hopefully he learned something from it.

But it also means that his assumption was not "just because you're white." It was because you were white and supporting a perceived injustice. In other words, the assumptions are coming not only from your skin color, but from "white + X."

Maybe you could ask your brother-in-law if there's something about you that triggers his racism radar? Because I guarantee you, it's more than just your skin color.

Why am I not surprised by this? Do you really think I haven't spoken to Al about this? And what basis do you have to offer your "guarantee", other than your own opinion?

My life experience.

You don't happen to wear a cowboy hat or feed cap, or drive a pickup with a gun rack, do you?

Do go on.

Let's not pretend that stereotypes exist in a vacuum. Speaking in a Southern accent increases the statistical likelihood that you are racist. Ditto for any of the classic "redneck" tells, like a 4x4 pickup with a gun rack, or a redneck hat. Not all Southern white rednecks are racist, but the incidence of racism in that subset of Americans is significantly higher than in the subset of All White Male Americans.

I realize that Southerners - especially those who are anything but racist good ol' boys - resent these stereotypes, just as any other group resents negative stereotypes. Thing is, no matter which group you belong to, you're gonna carry some baggage. Kinda sucks, but there it is.

One of the things i find most people never realize is this: no matter what you wear or how you look, you are in costume.
Choose your costume with care.

[The Grand Nudger]

Just imagine the feeling when you -are- "one of them" - but simultaneously...not a racist. Oh, the amount of jokes they have prepared for that situation. That little tidbit ought to give a moment of pause for the stereotype, but it doesn't. These fuckers have generational canned jokes for dealing with other rednecks who aren't racist - that means they've been dealing with that for awhile.......

(I think it's hilarious that you assume racism to be statistically more present on the basis of 4x4's or "redneckedness"....what do they call chocolate sprinkles in Boston...do you think? Isn't it possible that reporting and self acceptance is actually what you're experiencing? I've never found a bigot to be out of place based on his bigotry -anywhere- in the US.)

[Thumpalumpacus]

It's a fallacy no matter the context.

I disagree.

Saying 'you do X too' can a way of pointing out hypocrisy, or lending perspective (as i tried to do here). It only becomes a fallacy when you add 'therefore it's OK for others to do X.'

And you think I lack this perspective ... why?

Three things:

1) "White guy from Texas" is not the same as "generic white guy." Sorry, but statistics indicate that a white guy from Texas is, in fact, far more likely to be racist than a generic white guy.

Well, that makes it all right, then.

Sorry, assuming that because of tendencies, tied to either skin color or geographic location, that an individual is probably a bigot is unsupportable.

Do you assume all white guys from Texas are bigots?

2) My experience has been that white racists will sort of "feel me out" to see if I'm also a racist (aka 'one of us'). They do this with things like racist slurs and jokes. My job, as a decent human being, is to cut them short the instant they go down that road and let them know in no uncertain terms that no, I am not 'one of them.' If I say nothing, they'll assume I'm ok with their narrow-minded bigotry.

... which is pretty much what I assessed, and how I reacted.

3) In the gas station example you gave Blackout, that kid was reacting to a perceived injustice. He thought he was getting cut out of his rightful place in line. Jumping from there to "it's because you're white" is not much of leap, given the likely experience he's had in his life. No doubt there have been numerous times in his life when he was treated unfairly by white people due to racism.

That doesn't mean his reaction was right - it wasn't. he needed the little lesson you gave him with the pic of your son. Hopefully he learned something from it.

I get that. Explaining isn't justifying. His leap was wrong, and it made an unfair accusation.

But it also means that his assumption was not "just because you're white." It was because you were white and supporting a perceived injustice. In other words, the assumptions are coming not only from your skin color, but from "white + X."

Wrong. He said that I was for letting the other guy go first only because I shared the same race.

Let's not pretend that stereotypes exist in a vacuum. Speaking in a Southern accent increases the statistical likelihood that you are racist.

I don't speak with a Southern accent. I spent four years of my youth growing up in Iran, and a significant portion of my life in Southern California. This has pretty much erased any accent I had.

You sure are one for assumptions, aren't you?

Ditto for any of the classic "redneck" tells, like a 4x4 pickup with a gun rack, or a redneck hat. Not all Southern white rednecks are racist, but the incidence of racism in that subset of Americans is significantly higher than in the subset of All White Male Americans.

So you say. According to the FBI, the three leading states for hate crimes are California, New York, and Michigan.

I realize that Southerners - especially those who are anything but racist good ol' boys - resent these stereotypes, just as any other group resents negative stereotypes. Thing is, no matter which group you belong to, you're gonna carry some baggage. Kinda sucks, but there it is.

So why is complaining about that -- expressing that resentment -- wrong?

One of the things i find most people never realize is this: no matter what you wear or how you look, you are in costume.
Choose your costume with care.

Would you speak more clearly here?