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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 13, 2015 at 1:15 pm
(This post was last modified: February 13, 2015 at 1:33 pm by Lek.)
(February 12, 2015 at 5:40 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them [the damned] into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:47-48 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched
Luke 16:24 And he [the damned rich man] cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
2 Thessalonians 1:9New International Version (NIV)
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
Notice that Luke says "where their "worm" dieth not. What does it means when he speaks of their "worm" not dying? Your other verses say nothing about eternal torment. There are many references to Jesus' followers having "eternal life", but none to others having "eternal life". Most christians assume that we are all created with eternal souls, but the bible doesn't verify that our souls live forever unless we are with Christ.
(February 12, 2015 at 8:17 pm)Nestor Wrote: "Love your enemies" sounds great. I doubt you'll be taking any trips to Syria anytime soon though.
Loving your enemies doesn't mean that you let them kill and ravage. Be for real. I love my wife and kids, but I wouldn't stand by let them do that.
(February 12, 2015 at 3:06 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: (February 12, 2015 at 12:35 pm)Lek Wrote: This is not skirting the problem. This is telling it like it is.
... he wrote, even as he avoided answering my question.
Answer my question: what is your conception of love, such that fatal diseases and natural disasters express it? Would you wish a disease upon your own child?
No. I wouldn't wish those on my children and I don't think God wishes those upon us. That is the way he made the world, but that's not the whole picture. If you're talking about God, you have to look at the whole picture from the beginning to the end. God's love encompasses our lives from the beginning into eternity. He allows us to choose our own ends. Plus he's there to help us through whatever we experience here. Jesus also didn't put himself above us in that he experienced the same things which we experience. What hurts isn't always bad, and what feels good isn't always good.
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 13, 2015 at 3:03 pm
(This post was last modified: February 13, 2015 at 3:04 pm by Mudhammam.)
(February 13, 2015 at 1:15 pm)Lek Wrote: Your other verses say nothing about eternal torment. There are many references to Jesus' followers having "eternal life", but none to others having "eternal life". Most christians assume that we are all created with eternal souls, but the bible doesn't verify that our souls live forever unless we are with Christ. Thank you for proclaiming the fact that NOBODY has ANY clue whether their version of Christianity is "the right one," hence rendering your little Gospel message so irrelevant that even the Pope must now speak about atheists possibly going to heaven.
Damn God, talk about an epic fail.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 13, 2015 at 3:21 pm
(February 13, 2015 at 1:15 pm)Lek Wrote: Your other verses say nothing about eternal torment.
So how is the rich man complaining about his plight if he was snuffed out of existence?
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
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"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 13, 2015 at 3:35 pm
(This post was last modified: February 13, 2015 at 3:39 pm by Lek.)
(February 13, 2015 at 3:21 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: So how is the rich man complaining about his plight if he was snuffed out of existence?
He was in not in hell; he was probably in sheol or hades. Nobody goes to hell until after the final judgement when Jesus returns, when they are thrown into the "lake of fire". Jesus definitely spoke of the existence of hell and how bad it will be. If annihilation occurs, it is after time spent in hell.
(February 13, 2015 at 3:03 pm)Nestor Wrote: Thank you for proclaiming the fact that NOBODY has ANY clue whether their version of Christianity is "the right one," hence rendering your little Gospel message so irrelevant that even the Pope must now speak about atheists possibly going to heaven.
Damn God, talk about an epic fail.
We all know that Jesus is our savior, but you're right that we don't know for sure if our interpretation of biblical doctrine is correct or not. We believe that we humans evolved, but scientists don't all agree with each other about the specifics.
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 13, 2015 at 3:45 pm
(This post was last modified: February 13, 2015 at 3:46 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
(February 13, 2015 at 1:15 pm)Lek Wrote: (February 12, 2015 at 3:06 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: ... he wrote, even as he avoided answering my question.
Answer my question: what is your conception of love, such that fatal diseases and natural disasters express it? Would you wish a disease upon your own child?
No. I wouldn't wish those on my children[...]
Of course not. Why not?
That's right -- because it's an evil thing to do.
(February 13, 2015 at 1:15 pm)Lek Wrote: and I don't think God wishes those upon us. That is the way he made the world, but that's not the whole picture.
I'm pretty sure that, being omnipotent, he knew cancer would be painful, that mudslides would kill the innocent, and so on.
(February 13, 2015 at 1:15 pm)Lek Wrote: If you're talking about God, you have to look at the whole picture from the beginning to the end.
I have. Any being who would inflict tortuous deaths on innocents is not loving.
(February 13, 2015 at 1:15 pm)Lek Wrote: God's love encompasses our lives from the beginning into eternity. He allows us to choose our own ends.
My son's mother didn't choose her breast cancer. Go fuck yourself.
(February 13, 2015 at 1:15 pm)Lek Wrote: Plus he's there to help us through whatever we experience here.
Nonsense. He puts hurtful and even fatal experiences in front of us, and regularly ignores prayers to changes his behavior.
(February 13, 2015 at 1:15 pm)Lek Wrote: Jesus also didn't put himself above us in that he experienced the same things which we experience. What hurts isn't always bad, and what feels good isn't always good.
Explain to me how cancer is good. Explain to me how killing everyone in history for the sins of Adam and Eve is good.
No, your god is evil, and the fact that you claim he loves us is evidence that you either have no real conception of what love is -- or evidence that you've got a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome.
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 13, 2015 at 3:45 pm
(February 13, 2015 at 3:35 pm)Lek Wrote: He was in not in hell; he was probably in sheol or hades. Sheol means "the grave". It's oblivion, not a place of torment. I can find OT passages that explain as much if you need me to.
Hades was the ancient Greek underworld ruled by the god of the same name. You are not suggesting that this is a real place, are you? Are the gods Hades, Zeus and Poseidon also real?
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 13, 2015 at 5:04 pm
(February 13, 2015 at 3:45 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Sheol means "the grave". It's oblivion, not a place of torment. I can find OT passages that explain as much if you need me to.
Hades was the ancient Greek underworld ruled by the god of the same name. You are not suggesting that this is a real place, are you? Are the gods Hades, Zeus and Poseidon also real?
Christians also adopted the word hades to describe the place of the waiting. No I don't believe in the Greek gods. The old testament Jews didn't have a clear concept of life after death, but sheol was no less the state of waiting that christians ascribe to hades.
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 13, 2015 at 5:06 pm
We'll just add that to the long list of things christians adopted to pad out heir religion.
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 13, 2015 at 5:08 pm
(This post was last modified: February 13, 2015 at 5:10 pm by Lek.)
(February 13, 2015 at 3:45 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: No, your god is evil, and the fact that you claim he loves us is evidence that you either have no real conception of what love is -- or evidence that you've got a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome.
Like I always say, you refuse to consider that man has any guilt in the matter. You also refuse to look at the whole picture of our existence; both here in the afterlife. You only consider in the realm of your little boxed-in world.
(February 13, 2015 at 5:06 pm)Chad32 Wrote: We'll just add that to the long list of things christians adopted to pad out heir religion. It's simply assigning a word to a concept. Early christians were heavily influenced by Greek culture.
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RE: Deism: I don't get it
February 13, 2015 at 5:14 pm
We Humans at least have the excuse that we know we're all knowing, powerful, and present. With great power comes great responsibility, and that makes your god responsible for pretty much everything we can't control.
Yes, your religion was influenced by the cultures around it. No doubt about it.
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