Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: November 17, 2019, 12:54 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Abortion: 10 years as an atheist and I still don't get it
#1
Abortion: 10 years as an atheist and I still don't get it
I have a problem with how people draft their moral views. In particular, moral rationalization.

I'm a carnivore and I have been my whole life.  As a Christian I thought nothing of it, but when I dropped that stupid religion I began to understand that humans are absolutely brutal to nonhuman animals. The fact that I eat meat does not change this.  I will not rationalize my consumption of meat and conclude it is good or benign simply out of convenience. I acknowledge that it is wrong to eat meat, and then I proceed to eat meat.

My position is that it is wrong to kill anything that is alive. This is my a priori belief. The fact that we must kill things to survive is the secondary issue.  To say that it is morally acceptable to kill living things simply because we must is an appeal to consequences logical fallacy.  If we had Star Trek levels of technology, then it would be more obvious that it is wrong to kill anything.  It is justified to take a life if that living being poses a direct and immediate threat to your own life (at least in my opinion it is), but we should never kill our own offspring. Particularly given that we are mammals and not reptiles.

Now, I understand that the law has nothing to do with morality. For example, adultery simply cannot be illegal, but adultery is definitely morally wrong. You are causing real harm in someone's life by committing adultery. (Open relationships and swinging are not things I'm lumping in with adultery.)

And I understand that as far as the law and even perhaps even morality is concerned, an unborn child is not a person.  It is a human being, but not a person.  A dolphin has more personhood than an unborn human.

I also understand that while it is my opinion that we should not ever sacrifice our offspring to save ourselves, there is no legal obligation for a parent to sacrifice himself/herself to save the child. Nor could this law ever exist.  If, for instance, a mother found herself in an odd situation where she had to choose between her left arm and her five year old son, she is not legally obligated to give up her arm.

So I think at this point I've laid out the case for why abortion should be legal.  A civilian should not be compelled to suffer great bodily harm or risk of death (which birth often is) for anyone else, particularly if that other human being does not even have personhood.

Yet the pro-choice crowd does not seem to stop at legality. Most of them, as far as I understand, think that abortion is morally justifiable. But my understanding is that inasmuch as a man is morally obligated to stand his ground and fight to the death to protect his family (despite having the legal right to flee and save his own life), a woman is morally obligated to protect her child while it is growing inside her.  So please explain to me why abortion is morally acceptable or what I might be missing.
Jesus is like Pinocchio.  He's the bastard son of a carpenter. And a liar. And he wishes he was real.
Reply
#2
RE: Abortion: 10 years as an atheist and I still don't get it
Quote:So please explain to me why abortion is morally acceptable or what I might be missing.

You said it yourself - a foetus doesn't have the status of personhood.  Morality is only applicable to persons.  I view abortion as no more morally wrong than burning off a wart, removing an appendix, or pulling a tooth.

Furthermore, I'm having more than a little trouble with your stricture that it is wrong to kill anything that is alive.  Does this include disease vectors?  Celery stalks?  Suppose the police shoot and kill a man who is holding a classroom of  children hostage.  Is killing this man immoral if it prevents the deaths of 30 children?  While I understand that appeal to consequence is a fallacy, it is a very subjective and variable one.


Boru
'A man is accepted into a church for what he believes.  He is turned out for what he knows.' - Mark Twain
Reply
#3
RE: Abortion: 10 years as an atheist and I still don't get it
(April 9, 2019 at 4:36 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Yet the pro-choice crowd does not seem to stop at legality. Most of them, as far as I understand, think that abortion is morally justifiable. But my understanding is that inasmuch as a man is morally obligated to stand his ground and fight to the death to protect his family (despite having the legal right to flee and save his own life), a woman is morally obligated to protect her child while it is growing inside her.  So please explain to me why abortion is morally acceptable or what I might be missing.

1) Morality is subjective. 
2) A fetus cannot survive without my body. My body is my body, and nobody else's, even the fetus'. It's private. I don't have to explain why I find it moral or immoral because it's nobody else's beeswax. I don't think it's moral or immoral for someone else to have an abortion simply because it's not my body and none of my business. I don't get an opinion about that any more than I get an opinion on what my neighbor has for lunch.
3) How is a man morally obligated to protect his family more than a woman is?
If The Flintstones have taught us anything, it's that pelicans can be used to mix cement.

-Homer Simpson
Reply
#4
RE: Abortion: 10 years as an atheist and I still don't get it
For NV - doesn't have much to do with atheism, I'm not sure why you'd think that ten years of atheism would impact your opinion here.

In a field of exclusively suboptimal choices, we seek to do the thing that would amount to the least objectionable.  This isn't a rule of humanity, mind you, just a rough description of what Good People™ do when they find themselves confronted with Bad Choices™, lol. In deciding the final moral value of any given one of those choices as an act and how that yields a moral conclusion on the person we are considering moral desert.  

Would you deliver a child in a warzone?  If you thought that this was your duty, to carry a child in your womb and deliver it no matter the circumstances of that childs life, have you accomplished some good, or sought your own self interested satisfaction in being dutiful? What kind of person does that, do you think?
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


Reply
#5
RE: Abortion: 10 years as an atheist and I still don't get it
Atheists only lack belief in god. There is no shared view on anything else. Therefore, I'd have been surprised if it changed your mind on other things, such as abortion.
Reply
#6
RE: Abortion: 10 years as an atheist and I still don't get it
It depends on circumstances. What I find acceptable circumstances for abortion some won't agree with.

This isn't a dig at you, NV, more a general comment on the most vehemently anti-choice males out there. It's easy to be opposed to abortion when you are never in any danger of pregnancy.
Sanity adjacent.


Angel





IMGUR 
Reply
#7
RE: Abortion: 10 years as an atheist and I still don't get it
How do you know that a woman isn't protecting her family by having an abortion?
Illegitimi non carborundum
Reply
#8
RE: Abortion: 10 years as an atheist and I still don't get it
That's a great one.  A person can choose between two or more duties, with any choice leading to failure of one or more of them. It may also be the case that any given choice threatens someone else's duty. Lets couch it in terms that men instinctively grasp, lol.

Imagine yourself as a female who doesn't want a child, can't support a child, and would be an absolutely shit mother.... but -can- ruin some guys life with a child. Whats the moral obligation in this case?

Reverse the genders. What's the moral obligation for the male?

In both cases it may be to elect for or make the case for the abortion.
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


Reply
#9
RE: Abortion: 10 years as an atheist and I still don't get it
You don’t have to get it. There’s nothing wrong with thinking abortion is morally unacceptable. Don’t have one. The problem comes when you try to force your moral views on a woman at the cost of her bodily autonomy.
(August 21, 2017 at 11:31 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: "I'm not a troll"
Religious Views: He gay

0/10

Hammy Wrote:and we also have a sheep on our bed underneath as well
Reply
#10
RE: Abortion: 10 years as an atheist and I still don't get it
(April 9, 2019 at 6:19 pm)Losty Wrote: You don’t have to get it. There’s nothing wrong with thinking abortion is morally unacceptable. Don’t have one. The problem comes when you try to force your moral views on a woman at the cost of her bodily autonomy.

Or her life.
It's amazing 'science' always seems to 'find' whatever it is funded for, and never the oppsite. Drich.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Why am I still worrying about coming out as atheist? Der/die AtheistIn 48 2552 February 11, 2018 at 10:37 am
Last Post: Little Rik
  Would I still be an atheist if I believed this? TheAtheologian 21 1505 March 23, 2017 at 3:15 am
Last Post: TheAtheologian
  You can be an atheist and still follow the ten commandments as guidelines ErGingerbreadMandude 48 5020 January 30, 2017 at 3:00 pm
Last Post: The Valkyrie
  Controlled by fables from thousands of years ago! thool 19 1101 January 18, 2017 at 10:22 pm
Last Post: Minimalist
  300 years, yet atheism has not grown into a viable movement | Bart Campolo mralstoner 31 2377 October 20, 2016 at 6:27 am
Last Post: comet
  Closet Atheist Coming Out and Telling Family and Friends You're An Atheist Cholley71 10 5539 September 27, 2016 at 1:01 am
Last Post: Minimalist
  Poll for atheists - Do you still celebrate Christmas and why? jeebusmubummed 101 9284 September 17, 2016 at 9:13 pm
Last Post: DanTheOutlaw
  Atheists: Can You Still Accept X'n Friends? Detachable 76 6446 August 12, 2016 at 10:06 am
Last Post: Jesster
  Do you still fear hell? Lucifer 56 3736 July 14, 2016 at 1:58 pm
Last Post: vorlon13
  Do you think you'd still be a believer if the bible were more pleasant/accurate? Cecelia 53 3997 May 17, 2016 at 11:11 am
Last Post: AkiraTheFighter24



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)