Pascal's Wager Revisited

[robvalue]

There's no evidence for any kind of afterlife. But let's assume for a second that there is one.

There's no reason to think that what we think about this afterlife, or anything we do during this life has any bearing on whether or not we will receive this afterlife or what it will be like. The idea that Bronze Age fairy stories have some sort of wisdom on this matter, and that we better believe in them just in case, is pure fantasy.

Pretending to believe in the most impressive or scary sounding story, just in case by some cosmic coincidence it isn't the pile of shit it looks like from every angle, is about the biggest waste of time I could imagine.

Consider this: I can come up with a religion any time I want. And I can make it more impressive and scary than those available. Of course, I would claim God came to see me, and so on. Would anyone jump ship to this new "best bet" do you think?

Would you?

[Cato]

The dignity of a life enlightened by religion is higher than that of an atheist life; however, attaining that dignity indeed takes time and effort, and an atheist is unable even to recognize that his life is subpar. His higher faculties are dulled by the very self-contempt that you have amply demonstrated here in the discussion of differences between man and animals above. His incentives toward "making the real world a better place both for him and others" are negated by his own understanding of the "world," "himself," and "others" as hopelessly transient.

Go fuck yourself, you intolerable ignorant little shit. Strutting around with an air of intellectual superiority after dusting off an already eviscerated 350 year old idea is hardly dignified. Not to mention that this idea in turn was invoked to support the already ridiculous belief in a system of ancient superstition and fantasy. You are demanding to be seriously considered, yet don't have enough respect for your fellow humans to even attempt to substantiate any of your claims. After, you double down by insulting a group of people that share one common response to one outrageous claim by insisting that we are unenlightened and subpar. One of the many problems of religion is that it attempts to raise gullibility and fear of death to virtue status. If these were the only two measures of worth in this life you will find yourself replacing Jesus at the right hand of God.

[Ravenshire]

What people are definitely born as is stupid, including "agnostic atheist," as in babies indeed lack the belief that God exists or not, and babies do not live their lives worrying about eternal life or God, and then, as they grow up, they wise up, some more than others.

People are born ignorant. That is not the same as stupid. Please educate yourself so you don't look stupid.

---

Besides, if the eternal afterlife is so much better than this life, why aren't you in a hurry to get there?

Because the temporal life is important both (a) as an end in itself and (b) as a means of preparation for eternal life. Regarding (b), most of us aren't yet ready for it; to the extent that some saints are, (a) still remains; moreover, end of life for humans comes fast enough not to worry about any delay.

Bullshit answer. Did you read the link I posted? I'd be interested to hear the excuses you make in favor of eternity.

---

And in what way do you think that admitting other animals even approach your own level of intellect and empathy cause a life to be subpar?  The need to downgrade others in order to feel better about oneself is the hallmark of a subpar life.

I'm not downgrading animals; I am upgrading humans to where they already are.

Humans do not hold some gawd given pinnacle seat no matter what your holy medicine man has been telling you.

And why would any effort to make this world or oneself better be negated by an understanding that this world is transient?  It is those who neglect this world in favor of a possible afterlife that are dangerously deluded.

Because making yourself or another happy for eternity feels more valuable that for a finite number of years.

Boy, have you got that backwards. The limited number of years we have make every one of them more precious, not less. Helping someone in this world is a far better thing than you would ever be able to do in an eternal existence.

[Jenny A]

And in what way do you think that admitting other animals even approach your own level of intellect and empathy cause a life to be subpar?  The need to downgrade others in order to feel better about oneself is the hallmark of a subpar life.

I'm not downgrading animals; I am upgrading humans to where they already are.

To elevate oneself over others; to lower others beneath oneself---it's all a bit of a muchness.

But, make no mistake, we're pretty special. Special enough to be talking about ourselves in a more or less introspective way. Special enough to be aware of death. Special enough to create the scientific method. But, you appear unable to recognize that our intelligence and ability to behave morally are part of a continuum and not traits specially set aside for us. In so doing, you refuse to look at your own origins squarely in the face. You are the result of evolution. Not the result of god's plan or even evolution's plan (evolution does not make plans). Know thyself.

And why would any effort to make this world or oneself better be negated by an understanding that this world is transient?  It is those who neglect this world in favor of a possible afterlife that are dangerously deluded.

Because making yourself or another happy for eternity feels more valuable that for a finite number of years.

Don't degrade the finite. Rare things are precious because of their rarity. In the desert water is valuable. In the ocean, less so. Life is precious because it is fleeting. Begin to think it goes on forever and you make poor decisions about human life. Thinking you will live forever, makes one profligate with one's own life and more importantly, that of others.

Jesus preached giving away one's worldly possessions, forsaking one's family and otherwise living as if the end of the world was nigh. If the world really were ending tomorrow, or if you could really expect to be rewarded for such behavior eternally, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad way to live. But as we have no reason (other than wishful thinking) to believe we, or anyone else will live forever, it is not a good way to live. And Christians, fortunately for them, mostly don't live that way. Suicide boomers do. So did various Christian martyrs. That way leads a premature and ugly death with little or no advancement of knowledge and small care for others. It also justifies programs like The Inquisition, or the burning of heretics.

I strongly suggest you read some Stoics and some Epicureans. Both schools advocated living well in the here and now by behaving morally, seeking knowledge, and learning to be happy with what we have.

[Cyberman]

Exactly. I'm actually okay with the idea of eternal life, as long as it comes with the option of being able to end it any time I want.

Or rather we should say: the fact that eternal life, if it is to be lived forever, must always be worth living (for otherwise, since in infinite time, all possibilities are realized, including that of suicide if it is at all possible), entails that the pleasures of heaven and paradise are infinite and in particular, both God and creation can never be exhausted; there will always be fun new things to experience or contemplate.

But that's not even close to what I said. Doesn't matter how fun these new experience are; eventually, just living will become hell.

[downbeatplumb]

There's no evidence for any kind of afterlife. But let's assume for a second that there is one.

There's no reason to think that what we think about this afterlife, or anything we do during this life has any bearing on whether or not we will receive this afterlife or what it will be like. The idea that Bronze Age fairy stories have some sort of wisdom on this matter, and that we better believe in them just in case, is pure fantasy.

Pretending to believe in the most impressive or scary sounding story, just in case by some cosmic coincidence it isn't the pile of shit it looks like from every angle, is about the biggest waste of time I could imagine.

Consider this: I can come up with a religion any time I want. And I can make it more impressive and scary than those available. Of course, I would claim God came to see me, and so on. Would anyone jump ship to this new "best bet" do you think?

Would you?

My wife is a spiritualist and firmly believes in an afterlife which is not at all like the Christian afterlife.

Buddhists and Hindus believe in reincarnation, another form of afterlife. I could probably make up another couple of ideas on the theme and my off the cuff ideas would have exactly the same amount of evidence for them as the Abrahamic ideas i.e. none.

Ideas without evidence are destined to remain just ideas forever.

[Ravenshire]

Or rather we should say: the fact that eternal life, if it is to be lived forever, must always be worth living (for otherwise, since in infinite time, all possibilities are realized, including that of suicide if it is at all possible), entails that the pleasures of heaven and paradise are infinite and in particular, both God and creation can never be exhausted; there will always be fun new things to experience or contemplate.

But that's not even close to what I said. Doesn't matter how fun these new experience are; eventually, just living will become hell.

This is the point I make in the link I provided. On a long enough time scale, the initial conditions (paradise, purgatory or hell) become irrelevant because the sheer length of eternity reduces them all to abstract suffering.

[Cyberman]

Precisely. It's on the same lines as when people moan about prisons being holiday camps; the inmates have paid jobs, TV, hot meals etc. Which of course is true, but the one thing they haven't got is a key to that door. And even the harshest prison sentence isn't going to be eternal. If I'm to expect to be sentenced to an eternity of being me, or some post-mortem analogue, I'm going to insist that the deal includes the key to the door.

[Faith No More]

The dignity of a life enlightened by religion is higher than that of an atheist life; however, attaining that dignity indeed takes time and effort, and an atheist is unable even to recognize that his life is subpar. His higher faculties are dulled by the very self-contempt that you have amply demonstrated here in the discussion of differences between man and animals above. His incentives toward "making the real world a better place both for him and others" are negated by his own understanding of the "world," "himself," and "others" as hopelessly transient.

There is no dignity in believing in nonsense just because you find reality harsh.  Dignity lies in accepting that reality is not ideal.  Nearly every statement you've made here has been an appeal to consequence, which has no bearing on what truly is.  Just because you find the idea of this life being the one and only abhorrent, doesn't mean there is a magical paradise awaiting you after you die.  It's time to admit to yourself that you need the belief of an afterlife to cope with your fear of reality and that there is no dignity in clinging to an invisible security blanket as an adult.

[pocaracas]

Don't degrade the finite.  Rare things are precious because of their rarity.  In the desert water is valuable.  In the ocean, less so.  

Actually, if we're talking about drinking water... the ocean isn't really where you'd find it for us land animals... You need proper drinking water in the ocean as much as you do in the desert. The value of such water would be... pretty much the same.

Just thought you'd like to know!