Why there must be a God

[everythingafter]

Something tells me that he's a "drive by" anyway.

I got that impression as well.

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Clearly you people are not able to refute my logic. Most educated athiests who consider themselves to be smart would love to indulge in this sort of discussin which i know from real life discussions. I am wondering weather I am on a forum fulll of uneducated athiests and the like rather then former types.

The reality is not a single statement I have made in my original post can be refuted and this is why you have not done so.

It really is so simple. If I say x+3=5. You will say x MUST be 2 otherwise the rest of the equation cannot hold true. The proof that x is 2 is the rest of the equation. Likewise the proof that God exist is us, we are the proof. If he didnt exist theres no way that we would exist. The unlimited undependant creator is the neccessity for our universe to exist.

Your algebra is fine but your thinking skills are not. We have a clear idea of how algebra developed, how about your "unlimited undependant (sic) creator"? I don't even know why I wrote this. There's so many spelling and gramatical errors in your initial and subsequent posts that I'm too distracted to think about philosophy ... but I manage.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Clearly you people are not able to refute my logic

We need refute nothing.It's you who are making the claims. The burden of proof is 100% yours.

Provide some evidence or stop wasting our time and scurry back to your madrassa, there's a good boy.

[Soyouz]

HAHAHAHAHA.

You're calling Stephen Hawking stupid. Absolutely hilarious.

Anyway, obvious troll is obvious. No need to waste time here.

Thinkingman, you were raised as a muslim right?

[Shell B]

I'm absolutely baffled as to how atheists do not accept the existence of a creator and can only imagine there views are based on stupidity, illogical and incorrect application of science rather then intellect, logic, science etc.

Yeah well, at least my brand of stupidity doesn't include starting a gigantic ass post with a sentence that is bound to keep people from bothering to read it. I was also going to refrain from pointing out the fact that the above sentence is grammatically incorrect, but I couldn't help myself. Irony cannot be ignored.

[ThinkingMan]

"Whether or not an atheist agreed with you is irrelevant. You've explained a great deal but all you've done is tell me stories based on nothing. I've already read your first two posts and I've responded to the first one. You've said little of value in terms of "Why there must be a god."

The reason why I mentioned your fellow athiest agreeing with me is to show that someone else did understand what was being said regarding science in the first two posts. YOU obviosuly didnt understand which is why all your posts show you have not understood what was said in my first two posts.

"Premise 1 is self evidently true of the material and finite universe. However, it tries to baselessly smuggle in the concept of an infinite god into the argument so the proposer can say ta-da god exists."

This has already been dealt with, I think you know it or just cant think logically enough in order to see it. It doesnt baselessly try to smuggle in a creator. Clearly I said we derive the neccessity of a unlimited, independent creator based on the fact that what you have mentioned of the finite universe exists since the aforementioned creator can be the only solution to how everything eixts. The basis is the material and finite universe and as you mentioned its undeniable charachteristics. Do note that I am not saying God is material or has colour or anything like this since these things themselves AS WE KNOW within our realm and hence limited and dependent i.e. not attributable to God. Therefore if you dont like using the word God dont use it just use the word creator since that would fit the equation. However I think God is fine too since as previosuly mentioned most people use the word to identifiy the unlimited, independent, self sufficient creator we are talking about. I have already said if we want further information about him we could only get them from the creator e.g. revelation.

"commits the fallacy of begging the question, as it cannot be demonstrated to be the case and assumes that it is true."

It cannot be demonstrated to be the case because the request for such a demonstration is illogical and basless. Since God is unlimited and independent and our realm is the opposite how can we test him, this we have already discussed. Likewise for the millionth time the creator is logically derived from our existence which we consider to be factual and true and that is the basis for deriving God. Therefore it doesnt assume God to be true, rather the truth is arrived at through logically understanding the truth of our existence and understanding their is only one possible solution is the same way x+3=5 where x must be 2.

"Nu-uh. It's an unlimited, independent, eternal rabbit hybrid"

Already explained this. yes it is unlimited, independent and eternal but what do we imagine of a rabbit it has ears, eats sleeps etc. The attributes of a rabbit that we imagine are limited and dependent so we cannot attribute them to the creator. Anything material in our realm is limited and dependent so we cannot attribute to God. Like I said it is impossible for us to imagine what an unlimited and independent creator looks like or is like. Only the creator knows and its only when he informs of his other attributes can we say he is such and such.

Anyway I won't post further, things to do, but I will post another thread which will prove the quran is from the creator so do check it out when I come to do it.

[LastPoet]

You know, ThinkingMan, you suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyOHJa5Vj5Y

[ThinkingMan]

Unfortunately I base my views and opinions on intellect, logic and science(where applicable) and AM STILL WAITING FOR SOMEBODY TO REFUTE A SINGLE POINT I have made. Perhaps if one does so I can accept and changes my views.

You are still so devoid of intellect that you will be convinced of a creator only if you SEE HIM and TOUCH HIM even though YOU KNOW FULL WELL that his charachteristics of unlimited and independent are outside of your realm. This logical truth is is described in the Quran 6:103:
"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension..."

How then can one satisfy a people who have illogical and self contradicting approaches to determining truth? Indeed God can only be arrived at through his creation by "people who have sense..."

[Skipper]

The reality of the creator is beutifully described in the Quran 6:103:
"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension..."

But to believe that you have to take the Koran as truth...with NO EVEIDENCE! Can't you understand this? All your points lead back to having zero evidence and rely purely on you believing in a God.

There is no reasoning with you, there is no debating with you as you already have a conclusion in your head with regards to the origin of the universe and everything else and are trying to make things fit around that, where as most of us, and any logical person is doing the opposite, e.g. having no pre determined answer in our heads, yet using all available evidence to come to the most likely one.

[Captain Scarlet]

Unfortunately I base my views and opinions on intellect, logic and science(where applicable) and AM STILL WAITING FOR SOMEBODY TO REFUTE A SINGLE POINT I have made. Perhaps if one does so I can accept and changes my views.

You are still so devoid of intellect that you will be convinced of a creator only if you SEE HIM and TOUCH HIM even though YOU KNOW FULL WELL that his charachteristics of unlimited and independent are outside of your realm. This logical truth is is described in the Quran 6:103:
"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension..."

How then can one satisfy a people who have illogical and self contradicting approaches to determining truth? Indeed God can only be arrived at through his creation by "people who have sense..."

So when given a formal refutation of the cosmological argument you don't address a single point in the rejoinder at all. Priceless.

[ThinkingMan]

Quran:
"Do they then wait for anything other than that the angels should come to them, or that your Lord should come, or that some of the Signs of your Lord should come (i.e. signs running up to judgement day)! The day that some of the Signs of your Lord do come, no good will it do to a person to believe then, if he believed not before, nor earned good (by performing deeds of righteousness) through his Faith.."

Your minds are being tested by God. Your meant to contemplate creation and arrive to him before you die and before the end of the world starts. If logic and sense kick in at that point, i'm afraid it will be too late.