Good God

[gargantuan]

I've been an atheist since I was about 14 I think. I was actually an atheist before that, but it was never a topic of conversation so that was about the age I had to start using the term.

I'm now 31, and in all that time I've progressed through several different types of atheism. The live and let live kind. The militant "ban religion, burn down the churches" kind and eventually my current brand of atheism, which is the "education is the answer" kind. In short, my view is that religion is a negative force in the world, we would be better off without it, but it's a realisation that people must reach on their own if it's to stick. All I can do is supply the facts.

However, Religion isn't a purely negative force. It's uncomfortable for me to acknowledge this because I have an instinctive sense of the balance of things which tells me that the good religion does is outweighed by the bad it does. At this point, it comes down to simple addition and subtraction.

Although if I'm brutally honest with myself, and all good, right thinking people should be, I haven't really done the research. I suffer from what is called confirmation bias. I believe that religion is the cause of bad things, and I have armed myself with stats, facts and anecdotes which support that hypothesis and I haven't looked for, or have discounted any evidence which would disprove my theory. That's bad science.

Then the other night I was watching Jamie's American Revolution on channel 4 (UK). For those who don't know it; renowned british chef Jamie Oliver has taken on the challenge of improving the meals of a school in the most obese town in America. He was immediately met with a lot of opposition and it's difficult to watch these people cling so vehemently to the "way of life" that is so clearly killing them and inevitably their children. Surprisingly, Jamie's biggest ally emerged in the form of a local pastor. A man who clearly feels strongly about the need to change Americas eating habits, a man unafraid to tell his congregation the ugly truth and a man who is unafraid to use the power of the position afforded to him by religion to preach about the virtues of healthier living and eating. I was almost moved to tears as he leafed through his church directory, pointing out the people who had died as a result of their eating habits. It's a subject I feel strongly about and I instantly warmed to the pastor, as did Jamie Oliver. If this man can use his influence to change the diet of his small town, that's clearly a good thing. 1 point for religion.

So I've decided to actively look for the good that religion does. I still feel confident that my original theory will hold out, that religion is more bad than good. But I'm going to take a new approach to the subject. It's impossible to measure the "good" vs "the bad" because it's a very personal thing. I'll know it when I see it sort of thing. I'm also thinking about making a documentary out of it, since most documentaries on the issue fall neatly on one side or the other.

SO! The point of this really long post: I'm hoping some of the atheists on here would be willing to share with me any thoughts or experiences they may have about the "good" religion can do, and how (if at all) this has affected their views. Perhaps this will be a good place or me to start.

However, I'm not looking for comments from anyone religious. Your opinions don't really count on this issue. I don't mean any offence by that, it's simply something you can't contribute to because of the "confirmation bias" that I mentioned above.

[Watson]

I really like the idea of this project. Everyone involved could definitely end up learning a thing or two, and it is nice to see an atheist reaching out in this manner, instead of lashing out at all of religion. I think you will be surprised by the results.

Imight add, though, that you should definitely get the take of religious people on this as well. If you can be above your own confirmation bias, then surely other peope lcan be, too. I freely admit that bad has been done in the name of my own religion, but I could definitely point you to some good, as well.

[gargantuan]

Imight add, though, that you should definitely get the take of religious people on this as well.

If this goes well, I most certainly will be reaching out in this manner to religious people. But at this stage, simply for the sake of clarity, it's probably best to keep the two separate.

[Paul the Human]

Outstanding post, Gargantuan (and clever title).

I'm now 31, and in all that time I've progressed through several different types of atheism. The live and let live kind. The militant "ban religion, burn down the churches" kind and eventually my current brand of atheism, which is the "education is the answer" kind. In short, my view is that religion is a negative force in the world, we would be better off without it, but it's a realisation that people must reach on their own if it's to stick. All I can do is supply the facts.

You just described my process and current stance to a 't'. I like you already.

Although if I'm brutally honest with myself, and all good, right thinking people should be, I haven't really done the research. I suffer from what is called confirmation bias. I believe that religion is the cause of bad things, and I have armed myself with stats, facts and anecdotes which support that hypothesis and I haven't looked for, or have discounted any evidence which would disprove my theory. That's bad science.

Too true... and I think most of us are guilty of it.

SO! The point of this really long post: I'm hoping some of the atheists on here would be willing to share with me any thoughts or experiences they may have about the "good" religion can do, and how (if at all) this has affected their views. Perhaps this will be a good place or me to start.

I can't say I have any first hand experience of the good that religion can do, but I am well aware of the charitable acts and organizations that can be credited to 'Churches' and certain of their members.

All in all, I think that religion can inspire charity and kindness in an individual and/or small group of people, but that the 'Churches' themselves (not the individual buildings, but the governing bodies... micro vs. macro) are guilty of enough to throw it out of balance. That's what causes the apparent dichotomy.

[Minimalist]

So I've decided to actively look for the good that religion does.

I'll go dig out my microscope and join you.


Let's not forget that a lot of the "good" that religion does (charity) is little more than advertising for new members. A lot of them extort money from their members for charity to advance the interests of the church itself.

[Skipper]

So I've decided to actively look for the good that religion does.

I'll go dig out my microscope and join you.


Let's not forget that a lot of the "good" that religion does (charity) is little more than advertising for new members. A lot of them extort money from their members for charity to advance the interests of the church itself.

I wouldn't be that cynical. Although a lot of the good that does get done, could as easily and does as easily get done when religion isn't a factor, religion can just be a good banner to unite people under.

However, I do know a couple of elderly relatives who have a religious background and does seem to help with their impending deaths...but I guess thats a very general example and applies to most people.

[gargantuan]

Thanks Paul. I guess what I'm asking is; Have you ever seen something done in the name of (or as a result of) religion that has made you think, even if just for a second, "Hmmmm, perhaps we should keep religion around after all?"

Because that's what I thought when I saw the way people responded to the pastor in the Jamie Oliver programme. It didn't take long for me to revert back to my original thinking. I would probably react in the same way as the congregation to a "sermon" from Richard Dawkins because I respect his research and academic tenacity. It doesn't take religion to make someone an authority in a society, but in the world we live in, it certainly makes it easier. And let's face facts, the worlds biggest problems need expedient solutions. One word from the pope and the HIV problem would soon be in decline.

[Paul the Human]

Let's not forget that a lot of the "good" that religion does (charity) is little more than advertising for new members. A lot of them extort money from their members for charity to advance the interests of the church itself.

That supports what I was saying. The individuals that are "in the trenches" of these charities are genuinely charitable (generally speaking), but the 'Church' that operates the charity is not as charitable as they are trying to appear. They have ulterior motives.

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Thanks Paul. I guess what I'm asking is; Have you ever seen something done in the name of (or as a result of) religion that has made you think, even if just for a second, "Hmmmm, perhaps we should keep religion around after all?"

No. Any and all charitable and/or "good" acts can be (and are) done without religion. Religion is simply an effective tool to use as a banner for charity minded people to rally around. If it weren't religion, it would be simple compassion. Charity would survive the collapse of organized religion.

[gargantuan]

Let's not forget that a lot of the "good" that religion does (charity) is little more than advertising for new members. A lot of them extort money from their members for charity to advance the interests of the church itself.

I agree wit Skipper here. I think that's a wee bit too cynical. Quite a few years back I created a CD ROM for GCSE students on the devastation of HIV in sub-saharan africa. The project supported a photo exhibition by Don McCullin and it was paid for by Christian Aid. It was distributed for free to all schools in the UK and was even nominated for an award. It was beaten by Red Nose Day.

Again, this was clearly a good thing. Anyone could have paid for it, but anyone didn't. This was genuine, bona-fide charity work from a christian organisation to and in support of christians and non christians alike.

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No. Any and all charitable and/or "good" acts can be (and are) done without religion. Religion is simply an effective tool to use as a banner for charity minded people to rally around. If it weren't religion, it would be simple compassion. Charity would survive the collapse of organized religion.

I think I'm going to have to play devils advocate quite a bit on this issue.

Is there not an argument to be made that Atheism/Religion isn't as important as say, global warming. And if those with religious inclinations can be motivated to get out and do something about it simply by pressing the right religious buttons and quoting the right bits of scripture, that this should take precedent?

Again, I'm playing the devils advocate card here. This isn't necessarily my opinion..... or is it?

No. It's not.

[Paul the Human]

Again, this was clearly a good thing. Anyone could have paid for it, but anyone didn't. This was genuine, bona-fide charity work from a christian organisation to and in support of christians and non christians alike.

Agreed. Religion can and does do good things. I don't think anyone (not even Min) would deny that. The question is one of balance. Religion on a macro scale is guilty of a lot of wrong doing, but it still does good things, as well. Sometimes the motivations behind these 'good things' is suspect and sometimes it seems altruistic. It's not all one or the other.

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Is there not an argument to be made that Atheism/Religion isn't as important as say, global warming. And if those with religious inclinations can be motivated to get out and do something about it simply by pressing the right religious buttons and quoting the right bits of scripture, that this should take precedent?

Do I think that a 'Church' or a preacher should use his power to influence followers to do good works, because he has that power? Sure. Why not. What I don't believe is that religion is necessary to meet that end. If religion weren't the tool being used, something else would be. There is no end to the ways to manipulate the masses.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to rid the world of organized religion. I only care that it even exists when it is responsible for bad things. When it does good, I'm happy that good was done, even if superstitious people had to be manipulated into doing it.

Again, I'm playing the devils advocate card here. This isn't necessarily my opinion..... or is it?

No. It's not.

Hmm.