Opinions on my drive to be an atheist

[IATIA]

My brother believes there is no god and that we are simply biochemical robots and his wife is a go to church on Sunday christian.  They have a great marriage going on 20 years.

[robvalue]

I don't understand the assumption that if there is a "God" it must automatically be "all good". Why on earth would anyone make such a massive assumption? Considering we have no way to learn anything about any God, if such a thing exists, this is just wishful thinking.

Why would a being that is actually good have to keep reminding everyone how good they are all the time? Their actions should make this evident. The cop out is that he is "mysterious" and we can't possibly understand his plans. Well if we can't understand them, we have no idea if they are good or bad.

http://youtu.be/LQ0Vtk9ffGI

[Lemonvariable72]

I think you guys are reading into what he is saying in the wrong ways. Nicea correct me if I'm wrong but the impression i get is that your confused and you have no idea what to believe. Here is my advice. First of all be straight forward and honest with your wife, by the sounds of it she deserves that much. Also take some good science books, not explicitly anti religious ones but one like Cosmos. You want information before you can decide so reach out and grab it from neutral sources that aren't telling you what to think and think about what you learn. Also sit down and read your bible in full alone. That alone will answer an astonishing number of questions for you especially if you check it against independent and objective sources.
I think you will see why many of us disbelieve in god after you do these things. For we are in a universe that is older then we can truly comprehend and there are stars beyond number. But the god of this vast and amazing universe tells you where you can and cannot stick your peepee. Does that seem like something an omnipotent god would care about or other men?
As for divorce, I would say don't make that decision yet, not until your in a much clearer place.

[The Grand Nudger]

So just answer this simple question, if he followed the bibles guideline to not be a fornicator would he have had an unwanted pregnancy? Thats a simple enough question I hope, even for you?

Here we go with the no shit statements I mentioned posts ago.  If he hadn't done drugs, he would not have done drugs.  If he hadn't had an unwanted child he would not have an unwanted child.  Shame he was probably raised on the idea of abstinence, which -demonstrably- doesn't work.  Huh?  I would have simply suggested that he wear a condom, and that she take the pill.  /shrugs

What about me, if I followed Jesus principle when he said that if you even look at a woman with passion you would have committed fornication in your heart? Would I be so pressed to want to fuck other girls if I hadn't been dwelling on it?

Please don't extoll the virtue or usefulness of the concept of thoughtcrime in my presence......I think that you can't help but to dwell, so it doesn't matter what "jesus said" - you're proof of that, aren't you...lol.  More useless advice, as above. I snipped the bit about defiling the body, because it's just "hurr durr if people didn't do drugs they wouldn't do drugs" , again, none of these principles or the framework behind them seem to work, either for your brother, or for yourself.  and so..when someone mentions:

Principles don't help anyone if they don't practice them.

-one must also accept that they don't -have- to work when we do.  Both you and your brother "practised those principles" and yet here you are.  You think it's because you fell away from them..but of course that's the post hoc talking..which I can see that you still don't understand.

You are guilty of logical fallacies and you haven't proven otherwise. 

LOL, and you are "guilty" of being the kind of moron who doesn't understand what a logical fallacy is - but won't shut up about it, similarly proven...we can do this all day, if you'd like to trade jabs while you witness to us I guess that's kosher?

God or no god, what do you think my wife would want me to do? Work on our marriage or leave her? I haven't stated that god exists or not. I have said that if he does then he must have a ultimately good reason why he bans divorce except under adultery. 

I don't know.....Nica, and neither do you, apparently.  You should go figure that out, huh?  As far as "good reasons", don't you think that's an awfully empty claim....like that "those principles" claims above.  I think you like to say it (because you've been taught too), but I don't think you have any idea what it means, what that reason is or could be.  

If you don't know why it's a good reason to stay together, and lets say that your wife doesn't know why it's a good reason to stay together...then there -isn't- a good reason to stay together.  Unless jesus wakes you both every morning with fucking oral and has a 1/3 interest in your communal property - and would like to expand upon this nebulous "because reasons" bullshit.  

[SteelCurtain]

Nica, can I ask you a question, in earnest? Why have you excluded your wife from this conversation? It seems that if you are concerned about your marriage, your wife should be one of the first parties to know. After 7 years of marriage, it seems she has at least earned that.

If she would wrap everything up and parade it to the church elders because you expressed doubts about your faith and her, then that should tell you what you need to know, right?

Also, take a moment and consider what Rhythm is saying about post hoc fallacies. The entire point is that your version of "if he would have followed" JW principles he wouldn't have strayed is just as much post hoc as Rhythm's explanation. The only thing we know is that he was raised with JW principles, and the outcome. If he is an addict, he was an addict before he tried his first drug. JW principles were not going to do anything for him. Teaching abstinence to a teen hopped up on the hormone cocktail is a losing proposition more often than not. JW principles might have made things worse. Had he been taught the principles of safe sex and contraception, he might not have gotten a girl pregnant. Notice the term might.

Either way, it seems that you came here looking for validation. A den of atheists who just want to sin would tell you to join the club, leave your wife, and sow your wild oats. Instead, you got: talk to your wife, explore what you actually believe rather than what you want to believe, and atheism is not a scapegoat for wanting to do something against your religion.

Take what you will.

[Won2blv]

Also, take a moment and consider what Rhythm is saying about post hoc fallacies. The entire point is that your version of "if he would have followed" JW principles he wouldn't have strayed is just as much post hoc as Rhythm's explanation. 

Well, I have actually talked to my wife about it for the last year. She knows how I feel about our marriage. She just doesn't know about me questioning my beliefs. 

As far as the back and forth with rhythms... I have not once said that if he just followed JW principles he wouldn't have strayed as if it were a woo or holy experience. My point the whole time and now is simply, there are some very simple principles that anyone could agree with that would have lessened his pain in life. But its almost like fate or destiny is believed here. Sure, people with bad motives, qualities or intentions may very well end up acting on them. However, we all have a personal choice. And we all want to make good choices. That why self help materials are always a top hit in the information world. Even when I listen to Atheist Experience, half the calls are looking for advice. So, is being a JW the key? No, I have never stated that or believed that. Even the points about how we were both raised JW's but were now both in a bad position so some good our upbringing did? Well I can't speak for my brother 100% but for myself I can say, I haven't been acting in harmony with how I should act according to JW principles. But my issue is that I am doubting it. I know one thing for sure, I will never blame my upbringing for personal decisions. 

---

I think you guys are reading into what he is saying in the wrong ways. Nicea correct me if I'm wrong but the impression i get is that your confused and you have no idea what to believe. 

Yeah you're exactly right. I am going to go off the forums and web surfing binge for a bit to try and let my brain rest. But I will do exactly what you said because I think its a great idea. I am going to read the entire bible again, from a skeptical view and read material that doesn't seem to have a slant for one side or the other. Thanks

[The Grand Nudger]

-and the counterpoint, is that this claim

My point the whole time and now is simply, there are some very simple principles that anyone could agree with that would have lessened his pain in life.

-is entirely untrue, and an example of the ad hoc fallacy as you have related it -to us-.  Get it? How did your wife take the news, I wonder?

(might help to imagine me constantly drinking, smiling, and offering you food while we talk - regardless of my language or comments...lol - btw)

[Won2blv]

So just answer this simple question, if he followed the bibles guideline to not be a fornicator would he have had an unwanted pregnancy? Thats a simple enough question I hope, even for you?

Here we go with the no shit statements I mentioned posts ago.  If he hadn't done drugs, he would not have done drugs.  If he hadn't had an unwanted child he would not have an unwanted child.  Shame he was probably raised on the idea of abstinence, which -demonstrably- doesn't work.  Huh?  I would have simply suggested that he wear a condom, and that she take the pill.  /shrugs

What about me, if I followed Jesus principle when he said that if you even look at a woman with passion you would have committed fornication in your heart? Would I be so pressed to want to fuck other girls if I hadn't been dwelling on it?

Please don't extoll the virtue or usefulness of the concept of thoughtcrime in my presence......I think that you can't help but to dwell, so it doesn't matter what "jesus said" - you're proof of that, aren't you...lol.  More useless advice, as above.  I snipped the bit about defiling the body, because it's just "hurr durr if people didn't do drugs they wouldn't do drugs" , again, none of these principles or the framework behind them seem to work, either for your brother, or for yourself.  and so..when someone mentions:

Principles don't help anyone if they don't practice them.

-one must also accept that they don't -have- to work when we do.  Both you and your brother "practised those principles" and yet here you are.  You think it's because you fell away from them..but of course that's the post hoc talking..which I can see that you still don't understand.

You are guilty of logical fallacies and you haven't proven otherwise. 

LOL, and you are "guilty" of being the kind of moron who doesn't understand what a logical fallacy is - but won't shut up about it, similarly proven...we can do this all day, if you'd like to trade jabs while you witness to us I guess that's kosher?

God or no god, what do you think my wife would want me to do? Work on our marriage or leave her? I haven't stated that god exists or not. I have said that if he does then he must have a ultimately good reason why he bans divorce except under adultery. 

I don't know.....Nica, and neither do you, apparently.  You should go figure that out, huh?  As far as "good reasons", don't you think that's an awfully empty claim....like that "those principles" claims above.  I think you like to say it (because you've been taught too), but I don't think you have any idea what it means, what that reason is or could be.  

If you don't know why it's a good reason to stay together, and lets say that your wife doesn't know why it's a good reason to stay together...then there -isn't- a good reason to stay together.  Unless jesus wakes you both every morning with fucking oral and has a 1/3 interest in your communal property - and would like to expand upon this nebulous "because reasons" bullshit.  

You asked for specific principles and I gave them. You don't know what JW's even believe fully so you are an ignorant dumb fuck. And you don't have any idea how to see a viewpoint that you don't hold. 


what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul-- Billy Madison

[The Grand Nudger]

You asked for specific principles and I gave them. You don't know what JW's even believe fully so you are an ignorant dumb fuck. And you don't have any idea how to see a viewpoint that you don't hold. 

 
-you gave me a list of no shit statements which I addressed pages ago.  and?

 You don't know what JW's even believe fully so you are an ignorant dumb fuck.

-is this actually relevant, or did you have to manufacture a reason to use the word ignorant?

 And you don't have any idea how to see a viewpoint that you don't hold. 

Oh, but I do, and you have my comments to that effect.  I think that your viewpoint, as offered in thread, is ridiculous.  That's viewing in from within, with every hilarious assumption made.  That's -why- I don't understand your dilemma.  Get it? Seems to me that regardless of the claims made, and regardless of the truth of those claims, the answer is identical - and you seem to know exactly what that answer is...I've quoted you to that effect. Why are we even entertaining these "if fairies where really real I would want to -x-" hypotheticals? Even excluding those.......why are we entertaining the notion that this "conservative lifestyle" works ....some mysterious how you've failed to explain........when in every instance put under scrutiny it fails to provide the effect it lays claim to?