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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 16, 2015 at 12:45 pm
(This post was last modified: June 16, 2015 at 12:46 pm by Whateverist.)
(June 15, 2015 at 7:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (June 15, 2015 at 7:20 pm)Kitan Wrote: I determine good by way of how it makes me feel.
If someone treats me kindly and respectfully, I am going to understand the good and reciprocate it. No god needed.
If someone does something that hurts me, obviously that is not good.
Thank Kitan.
But don't you believe there are some things that ARE immoral regardless of how someone might "feel?"
For example, a jealous husband can feel that murdering his cheating wife is not immoral. But he is wrong. It IS immoral regardless of how he feels or what he thinks. The question is, where does the universal truth "murder is wrong" come from?
A jealous husband doesn't think enough if he murders his faithless wife. The pull of morality has a limited effect. In the example you raise, the pull of morality was insufficient. That would be as true if the jealous husband was a devout Catholic as it would be if he were an atheist. Subscribing to a system of morality, Catholic or otherwise, doesn't make one immune to the feeling and emotions we are all subject to. Fortunately many of us, Catholic and otherwise, manage not to violate our higher values even in the grip of strong emotion.
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 16, 2015 at 12:45 pm
(June 16, 2015 at 12:11 pm)robvalue Wrote: So... you don't believe in evolution? Or you think God put some magic into evolution or something?
Because we already have great explanations that don't require such massive assumptions.
I do believe in evolution.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 16, 2015 at 12:46 pm
(This post was last modified: June 16, 2015 at 12:47 pm by robvalue.)
That's good to hear 
I think we need a new sub forum "Questions for Catholic Lady"  This is getting messy 
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 16, 2015 at 12:47 pm
(June 16, 2015 at 12:19 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: (June 15, 2015 at 7:25 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Thank Kitan.
But don't you believe there are some things that ARE immoral regardless of how someone might "feel?"
For example, a jealous husband can feel that murdering his cheating wife is not immoral. But he is wrong. It IS immoral regardless of how he feels or what he thinks. The question is, where does the universal truth "murder is wrong" come from?
Well the bible has gods advice on what to do in precisely this situation.
You kill the cheating wife and its all good.
http://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-10.htm
Other people may have covered this but this thread grew faaassst.
I am sorry, but I have addressed the Old Testament numerous times. I'm Christian and believe in the teachings of Christ. He condemned the stoning of the cheating wife.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 16, 2015 at 12:47 pm
(This post was last modified: June 16, 2015 at 12:53 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Quote:Just free to determine whether they believe the OT stories are allegorical or literal. ![[Image: smile.gif]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=atheistforums.org%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fsmile.gif) And when I say free I just mean they can do so without going against Church teaching.
Which is, again, no problem for me. Though it can become a problem for those who believe in a literal OT (which catholics are "free" to do do).
Quote:Yes. If we believe God is perfect then it would logically follow that He has never done anything wrong, ragardless of whether someone believes in the literal OT or not.
Then explain the morality of either the allegorical or literal OT. Explain the good defined by god in the act of slaughtering children, or commanding genocide? The OT god did those things -literally or allegorically- and he has never done anything wrong. Which seems, to me, to put us at an impasse.
I think that slaughtering children and commanding genocide are wrong regardless of who does it and that no amount of allegory will make the slaughterers side the moral one (and I think this same thing about the crucifixion of christ)
-this is my moral truth. Do you not agree that this is a moral truth?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 16, 2015 at 12:52 pm
(This post was last modified: June 16, 2015 at 12:54 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(June 16, 2015 at 12:19 pm)robvalue Wrote: My problem is this:
Say you're right and god did do that, he made us moral. I assume all this took literally no effort on his part, being a god and all.
Isn't one thank you enough? Why do you feel the need to thank him over and over every day and make it such a big part of your life? It's an honest question. Are you scared he will take it away from you if you don't? Or do you think he really deserves such relentless praise? Why would he even care, being a god?
I'm interested
I never claimed he made us moral. He made us with free will so we can choose to do the moral or immoral thing.
We do have some instinctive notion of what is right and what is wrong, but we still would greatly benefit from some guidance, even if that guidance just comes from our parents independent from any religion.
Not scared. It's just a good thing to be grateful for what you have and to always remember all the good things in your life. And of course, God wants a relationship with us. We don't "need" to thank Him everyday though. That is not some sort of rule. It's just a good thing to do.
(June 16, 2015 at 12:22 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: (June 16, 2015 at 12:33 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Hm? The Middle East is mostly Muslim, not Christian/Catholic.
Same God. Muslims also accept the OT and NT, in much the way you accept the OT (flawed, allegorical, etc.). They believe Jesus was born of a virgin and will return on the last day to judge the living and the dead.
Some things we believe are the same, other things are completely different. They do not believe that Jesus is God, and that's pretty much the crux of Christianity. On the other hand, I do not believe Mohammad was a prophet, and that is the crux of Islam.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 16, 2015 at 12:54 pm
(This post was last modified: June 16, 2015 at 12:55 pm by robvalue.)
Ah, that's the thing. I'd be happy to have a relationship with him, but he hides from me. All I get is messages from humans, I get nothing from him. And the messages never agree.
I have no way of knowing if I'm talking to god or talking to nothing, because it's all the same.
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 16, 2015 at 12:55 pm
(June 16, 2015 at 12:52 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: And of course, God wants a relationship with us.
Why would you say something like that?
How would you know about that? No, wait, let me guess: someone told you. AHAHAHAHA!
How would that someone know about that? Wait, let me guess: someone wrote it down in a letter thousands of years ago! AHAHAHAHAH!
Still, how would that person know about that to write it?
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 16, 2015 at 12:55 pm
(This post was last modified: June 16, 2015 at 12:57 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
The crux of christianity is that jesus is christ, not that jesus is god - that's why they called it christ-ianity, rather than god-tianity. The god job was already handled -by god- before he decided to become christ -which is a title and not a name, or so the story goes.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What IS good, and how do we determine it?
June 16, 2015 at 12:56 pm
(June 16, 2015 at 12:37 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Just free to determine whether they believe the OT stories are allegorical or literal. And when I say free I just mean they can do so without going against Church teaching.
This isn't quite right. Even if a Catholic were to take the events in Genesis 2 and 3 figuratively, the church mandates that believers adhere to the literal belief of Adam and Eve as first parents of all humanity and that some sinful event transpired resulting in original sin.
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