What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[robvalue]

If 2 people enter a relationship in the same conditions, then if what you say is true, the same applies! The marriage part is irrelevant.

And marriage certainly doesn't guarantee those conditions either

I can tell these aren't your real reasons, because I think even you can see they don't quite add up. I would call these rationalisations. That is my opinion, anyway.

[Catholic_Lady]

You a base wife?  If so, fuckin gratz...you're the white unicorn of base wives.  I mean that earnestly.......you know how it is...

Lol, actually I don't. There are a lot of devout Christians in the Air Force. At least in the pilot world. I've actually met a lot of like minded people here.

[The Grand Nudger]

Especially with the STD thing, if 2 people go into a marriage never having had sex before and never having sex with anyone else, it really decreases the chances of STD's (unless someone got raped by an infected person).

So it's not the marriage that does anything at all then....... is it?

I'm not talking about devout christians, btw, I'm talking about faithful wives.....and of course "less than faithful" wives...of which many are devoutly christian, granted.

(glad to see that you're through with not-excusing pedophilia btw)

[robvalue]

So...

God needs an Air Force? He be slippin!

Just messing with ya

[Catholic_Lady]

Especially with the STD thing, if 2 people go into a marriage never having had sex before and never having sex with anyone else, it really decreases the chances of STD's (unless someone got raped by an infected person).

So it's not the marriage that does anything at all then....... is it?

I'm not talking about devout christians, btw, I'm talking about faithful wives.....and of course "less than faithful" wives...of which many are devoutly christian, granted.

(glad to see that you're through with not-excusing pedophilia btw)

Well we've been in the AF for 2 years, so it hasn't been that long. I have never met or heard about a wife cheating.

Actually, I take that back. One person did tell me that she heard about one of the wives having an affair with one of her husband's students.

So I heard it third hand, but that is the only time I ever heard anything like that. Perhaps it happens a lot, but not that I have seen.

I never excused pedophilia. If you think that is what I was doing, you greatly misunderstood.

---

So...

God needs an Air Force? He be slippin!

Just messing with ya

  Hmph!

[The Grand Nudger]

Who says that you did?  You couldn't if you tried, it's inexcusable......that's one of my moral truths.

Well we've been in the AF for 2 years, so it hasn't been that long. I have never met or heard about a wife cheating.

Rgr, rgr, you're new. Give it a few more years, a few deployments, and watch that field change in front of your eyes..lol.

So, continuing with this business about waiting until marriage......since the marriage -itself- doesn't seem to have anything to do with the benefits which are important to you...where does that leave your non-god based reasons for waiting until marriage? -And where does that leave Adam and Steve.....the situation in which you positied your reasons for to begin with?

Are we still, tongue in our cheeks, smile on our faces, saying - "Well, if they're married it's okay....but they can't get married!" ............?

[Catholic_Lady]

Who says that you did?  You couldn't if you tried, it's inexcusable......that's one of my moral truths.

Well we've been in the AF for 2 years, so it hasn't been that long. I have never met or heard about a wife cheating.

Rgr, rgr, you're new.  Give it a few more years, a few deployments, and watch that field change in front of your eyes..lol.

So, continuing with this business about waiting until marriage......since the marriage -itself- doesn't seem to have anything to do with the benefits which are important to you...where does that leave your non-god based reasons for waiting until marriage?

 I do think that 2 people who are in a loving marriage tend to have a more serious commitment to each other than 2 people who are involved in a one night stand, a fling, or even a relationship. If you are or ever  were married, wouldn't you say you generally have/had more commitment to your spouse than to a girlfriend/boyfriend or to the bootie call or to the one time person? Lol.

Of course, there are exceptions, but generally speaking, married people tend to be more invested in each other and more committed to each other than people in those other types of relationships. (I'm going to repeat that part again, so it doesn't get repeated to me: there are exceptions. ;-) )

So, because of that, I think if you get pregnant while you are married, you are more likely to have a more stable environment for a child than if you get pregnant from a boyfriend, a bootie call, or a one night stand. This will decrease (not completely eliminate, but decrease) the chances of a child growing up without a father. And even if there is a divorce, I think it's generally better for a child to have a divorced father than a father who he never met because he was just a one night stand.

I also think that people are less likely to get taken advantage of when they have sex with their spouse verses with a one night stand or a fling. Since people usually tend to care about their spouse more than they do about their boyfriend/girlfriend or their flavor of the month, you are probably less likely to be taken advantage of in that sort of way. Spouses are generally likely to love and care about each other more so than one-night-standers.

Lastly, obviously , there is the STD thing. You have a much higher chance of contracting an std if you sleep with 15 people who slept with 15 other people verses just waiting until you're married to someone who also waited until he was married. Of course, STD's can still happen because one of both people can cheat, but you are still setting yourself up for a safer bet if you wait verses if you just go around having multiple partners.

This is why I believe, from a purely objective level, why it seems safer to wait. It's a personal decision my husband and I made, and it's something I will definitely teach my future children. But I don't lose respect for anyone who chooses differently.

---

If 2 people enter a relationship in the same conditions, then if what you say is true, the same applies! The marriage part is irrelevant.

You are correct. If 2 people enter a relationship where they have promised each other to be committed for life, then the same applies.

Not very many relationships are like that though. Usually when 2 people fully intend and have promised each other to be committed for life, they just get married and get the tax benefits, etc. I would wonder why they don't just get married if they fully intend on committing for life. But if 2 people did make that commitment without getting married, then as far as the non God related, practical reasons are concerned, yes, the same would apply.

---

Rhythm, were you in the AF?

[robvalue]

So what you're really saying is monogamy has benefits

But to say it's immoral to have sex outside marriage... that would suggest that two people who have never been with anyone else could meet, be totally serious and committed, have immoral sex, then get married and have moral sex with the same partner! How could that work? What is making it immoral previously? "Inadvisable" is hardly the same as "wrong/harmful".

You don't have to answer, I'm just curious.

[abaris]

You are correct. If 2 people enter a relationship where they have promised each other to be committed for life, then the same applies.

Again, there's no religious safety belt attached. Also the promise, though given with honest intent, may become void at some time. I've seen people living out their years together although they never promised each other anything and weren't the least bit religious. I've also seen church marriages break apart after a few years and I've seen people making each others lives a living hell, but staying together since they believed in that binding religious contract.

There's never any guarantee when two people get together. They may have made the right or the wrong choice. People do change and it's always up to the individuals if they can and want to deal with these changes in their partners.

[The Grand Nudger]

I do think that 2 people who are in a loving marriage tend to have a more serious commitment to each other than 2 people who are involved in a one night stand, a fling, or even a relationship. If you are or ever  were married, wouldn't you say you generally have/had more commitment to your spouse than to a girlfriend/boyfriend or to the bootie call or to the one time person? Lol. 

What we -think- isn't as important as what we can demonstrate to be true.  

Of course, there are exceptions, but generally speaking, married people tend to be more invested in each other and more committed to each other than people in those other types of relationships. (I'm going to repeat that part again, so it doesn't get repeated to me: there are exceptions. ;-) ) 

So they are..unless they aren't?  I thought you were a wife, not a weasel?  :wink:

So, because of that, I think if you get pregnant while you are married, you are more likely to have a more stable environment for a child than if you get pregnant from a boyfriend, a bootie call, or a one night stand. This will decrease (not completely eliminate, but decrease) the chances of a child growing up without a father. And even if there is a divorce, I think it's generally better for a child to have a divorced father than a father who he never met because he was just a one night stand. 

What you think doesn't accord well with reality in this case.  The stability of the environment depends upon the stability of the relationship, not it's status as a marriage.  If you married a domestic abuser, the relationship would not provide that stability no matter how well invested either party were.  But so what, we're talking marriage, not kids.  

I also think that people are less likely to get taken advantage of when they have sex with their spouse verses with a one night stand or a fling. Since people usually tend to care about their spouse more than they do about their boyfriend/girlfriend or their flavor of the month, you are probably less likely to be taken advantage of in that sort of way. Spouses are generally likely to love and care about each other more so than one-night-standers. 

Then again you would be wrong, but only because you have a poorly defined and general concept of "taking advantage".  How does a one night stand "take advantage", in what way can a one night stand do this that a husband cannot?  

Lastly, obviously , there is the STD thing. You have a much higher chance of contracting an std if you sleep with 15 people who slept with 15 other people verses just waiting until you're married to someone who also waited until he was married. Of course, STD's can still happen because one of both people can cheat, but you are still setting yourself up for a safer bet if you wait verses if you just go around having multiple partners. 

The simple fact remains, if you keep referring to probabilities..that it is your -husband- not a fling, not a one night stand, not a boyfriend... who is most likely to give you an std. The marriage itself, is not - in any way- a factor in this. 

This is why I believe, from a purely objective level, why it seems safer to wait. It's a personal decision my husband and I made, and it's something I will definitely teach my future children. But I don't lose respect for anyone who chooses differently.

I understand...all good and well...so lets get Adam and Steve to wait until they're married then...right? If Adam and Steve are married, then you see no reason (no, non-god based reason, of course) to call their relationship immoral, or inadvisable, right?
(wish my first would have married -me-...lol, btw..but I left for the service and she found someone else while I was earning that ring money. ah well, gave it to someone else)