Ask a Traditional Catholic

[Randy Carson]

Your mind is twisted....darkened, really. You cannot see verses such as:

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I appreciate the confirmation on your wealth of intellectual dishonesty. Well done.

Intellectually dishonest?

Bull. What they needed was to know that God loves them and that the people who had abused certain passages or concepts were wrong. But you couldn't tell them that God loves them because you don't know that God loves you.

I've heard your story that many people in this forum have been hurt by other Christians, have had bad experiences, etc. I'm very sorry that happened. But what ALL of those folks need is not less God but less man and MORE GOD. God is love. Only God can heal these hurts.

Except your sky daddy is only love if you understand him is just the right way. And any variation in that understanding is considered heresy which apparently in a whirlwind of love, a person should be drowned mafia style.

You love to twist everything to bring it back around to how Christianity is evil, don't you?

Tone down the preaching, Randy. Nobody wants to hear it. If that's all you have, then you've exhausted your attempts at reasoned argument and have settled on pulpit pot shots. Your god is only love about 10% of the time. For every one of those verses about love, I could pop off 10 which describe the hate mongering, fear mongering jackass that is described by your Bible.  

Of course you could, Mike. Of course you could. And that's what the Bible is all about, right? That's the ENTIRE point of the whole Bible...the whole 3,000+ years of Judeo-Christian history is to show how God is an evil being.

I won't waste my time or breath though, because it doesn't exist. It is a story you tell yourself to feel more secure about your place in the cosmos. If you need that, fine. But I don't. I am happy, connected, and secure. I enjoy fulfilling relationships. I practice empathy and connect with others. I seek to rectify my ideas and align them most closely with what can be shown to be, not what a book written by bronze age goat herders and the medieval scribes who modified it to fit their whims.

Oh, and I just feel the warmth and empathy oozing from your posts since the day I joined the forum. Being God-free has been so liberating for you!

I leave you to God's mercy, Mike, but you saw the verse. Leading others astray is something that God takes very seriously, apparently.

I bet you do, Randy. You know what the ultimate irony is? You caterwauling about how people who use fear to subjugate others is not what your religion is all about, and in the very same post you do threaten me with your god's wrath for leading people astray, alongside your "understanding" about people who believe differently being killed for doing so. But it's not about fear at all, is it?

It's a two-edged sword, Mike. You can stare at the judgment of God and shake your fist at Him for His just punishments (good luck with that) or you can stare at His cross and thank Him for dying so you don't have to.

[SteelCurtain]

I appreciate the confirmation on your wealth of intellectual dishonesty. Well done.

Intellectually dishonest?

Yep.

Except your sky daddy is only love if you understand him is just the right way. And any variation in that understanding is considered heresy which apparently in a whirlwind of love, a person should be drowned mafia style.

You love to twist everything to bring it back around to how Christianity is evil, don't you?

How have I twisted anything? You are the one that posted the direct quote from the Bible that people who lead others from God should have a millstone tied around their neck and drowned. If that isn't evil, I don't know what is.

Tone down the preaching, Randy. Nobody wants to hear it. If that's all you have, then you've exhausted your attempts at reasoned argument and have settled on pulpit pot shots. Your god is only love about 10% of the time. For every one of those verses about love, I could pop off 10 which describe the hate mongering, fear mongering jackass that is described by your Bible.  

Of course you could, Mike. Of course you could. And that's what the Bible is all about, right? That's the ENTIRE point of the whole Bible...the whole 3,000+ years of Judeo-Christian history is to show how God is an evil being.

No where did I say that this is what the Bible is all about. My point is that I'll take it all into account. I won't excuse or ignore the terrible shit attributed to your God, and the whole of the Bible colors my conclusion that yes, your god is described as an evil being.

But it doesn't exist, so I really, really don't care past responding to your intellectual dishonesty, and making sure to illuminate it so the rest of the forum and the lurkers here can see it in it's full glory.

I won't waste my time or breath though, because it doesn't exist. It is a story you tell yourself to feel more secure about your place in the cosmos. If you need that, fine. But I don't. I am happy, connected, and secure. I enjoy fulfilling relationships. I practice empathy and connect with others. I seek to rectify my ideas and align them most closely with what can be shown to be, not what a book written by bronze age goat herders and the medieval scribes who modified it to fit their whims.

Oh, and I just feel the warmth and empathy oozing from your posts since the day I joined the forum. Being God-free has been so liberating for you!

You exhausted the warmth really quick. I still have empathy for you, Randy. Your posts actually make me really sad. Your worldview is limited to this tiny book. You have memorized all these catechisms and made these long Word documents so you can be the world's best apologist. You corner yourself with these indefensible positions and you sidestep and hope everyone forgets. But you have been abhorrent from step one here, refused to play by our rules, and blamed it on everyone else. So, I'll reserve my warmth for someone who has earned it.

And I have never believed in a god. I am free, so I guess I am technically liberated.

I bet you do, Randy. You know what the ultimate irony is? You caterwauling about how people who use fear to subjugate others is not what your religion is all about, and in the very same post you do threaten me with your god's wrath for leading people astray, alongside your "understanding" about people who believe differently being killed for doing so. But it's not about fear at all, is it?

It's a two-edged sword, Mike. You can stare at the judgment of God and shake your fist at Him for His just punishments (good luck with that) or you can stare at His cross and thank Him for dying so you don't have to.

I stare at no such thing, Randy. There is no god for judgement, and this is the last time I'll ask you to stop preaching instead of responding to the actual post.

Why don't you try that last one again? The irony was apparently lost on you, because you did it again. While simultaneously sticking to this idea that your religion is not predicated on fear and threats, you continue to bely that point with every post, threatening me with God's judgement.

[Randy Carson]

Your mind is twisted....darkened, really. You cannot see verses such as:



Bull. What they needed was to know that God loves them and that the people who had abused certain passages or concepts were wrong. But you couldn't tell them that God loves them because you don't know that God loves you.

I've heard your story that many people in this forum have been hurt by other Christians, have had bad experiences, etc. I'm very sorry that happened. But what ALL of those folks need is not less God but less man and MORE GOD. God is love. Only God can heal these hurts.


I leave you to God's mercy, Mike, but you saw the verse. Leading others astray is something that God takes very seriously, apparently.

No, the problem is that Steel, and I, and many others read ALL the verses, not just for God so Loved the World.  And we ask questions like why would a omnipotent god need to sacrifice his son in order not to punish eternally for finite crimes? 

If someone is opposed to God, how is that a finite crime? Moreover, how is ANY crime committed against an all-holy God finite?

And if God chooses to take upon Himself the punishment that we deserved for our sins against God, how is that unfair to us (or to Jesus who IS God)?

And we look at what god is supposed to have actually done (like ordering the death of all Egyptian first born or the death of everyone but young virgin women in whole apparently blameless villages) as opposed to declarations of fatherly love. 

Moses asked nicely. Pharaoh said no. Ten times.

Apparently blameless? The Canaanites were slaughtered as capital punishment for their immoral lives. These were evil people, and I don't think you are in a position to take their side against God when you are ignorant of just how bad these folks were.

Knowing that you are among the few who might actually read something I recommend, here are two articles that explain this:

http://www.evidenceunseen.com/what-about...-genocide/
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter...canaanites

And we don't believe things simply because they are written in an old book, no matter how many people revere that book.  We don't believe extraordinary claims with minimal evidence. 

"Minimal" evidence? That's a far cry from the usual demand for "extraordinary" evidence. But the requirement is met by "sufficient" evidence, and that is available. It's why I post here, Jenny.

We don't believe a book that is contradicted by history and science.  

Gee, what a coincidence. Neither do I.

Ultimately the questions are two:  Is god real (to which I say most probably not); and if the Christian god is real is he good (to which I say obviously not unless like Dritch you define good as whatever god does).

Yes and yes.

So I ask you is supporting people in unreal beliefs leading them astray?  If so every apologist is very very guilty.

There is nothing unreal about believing in God, Jenny. Billions of us know that. The fact that you don't is another matter.

So Steel listened to people in pain. People seeking answers.  And he let their own rationality find the answers.  And those answers were not only right, but not religious, and they made those people feel better.  Because a world without Yahweh is better.  I'd say he saved people from stumbling.

Right? Are you 100% sure of that, Jenny? I don't think you are.

[Randy Carson]

Intellectually dishonest?

Yep.

You love to twist everything to bring it back around to how Christianity is evil, don't you?

How have I twisted anything? You are the one that posted the direct quote from the Bible that people who lead others from God should have a millstone tied around their neck and drowned. If that isn't evil, I don't know what is.

Of course you could, Mike. Of course you could. And that's what the Bible is all about, right? That's the ENTIRE point of the whole Bible...the whole 3,000+ years of Judeo-Christian history is to show how God is an evil being.

No where did I say that this is what the Bible is all about. My point is that I'll take it all into account. I won't excuse or ignore the terrible shit attributed to your God, and the whole of the Bible colors my conclusion that yes, your god is described as an evil being.

But it doesn't exist, so I really, really don't care past responding to your intellectual dishonesty, and making sure to illuminate it so the rest of the forum and the lurkers here can see it in it's full glory.

Oh, and I just feel the warmth and empathy oozing from your posts since the day I joined the forum. Being God-free has been so liberating for you!

You exhausted the warmth really quick. I still have empathy for you, Randy. Your posts actually make me really sad. Your worldview is limited to this tiny book. You have memorized all these catechisms and made these long Word documents so you can be the world's best apologist. You corner yourself with these indefensible positions and you sidestep and hope everyone forgets. But you have been abhorrent from step one here, refused to play by our rules, and blamed it on everyone else. So, I'll reserve my warmth for someone who has earned it.

And I have never believed in a god. I am free, so I guess I am technically liberated.

It's a two-edged sword, Mike. You can stare at the judgment of God and shake your fist at Him for His just punishments (good luck with that) or you can stare at His cross and thank Him for dying so you don't have to.

I stare at no such thing, Randy. There is no god for judgement, and this is the last time I'll ask you to stop preaching instead of responding to the actual post.

Why don't you try that last one again? The irony was apparently lost on you, because you did it again. While simultaneously sticking to this idea that your religion is not predicated on fear and threats, you continue to bely that point with every post, threatening me with God's judgement.

Mike-

I understand why you think its ironic. I really do.

God will judge every one of us...me and you and rexbeccarox and minimalist and stimbo...the whole lot of us.

Who knows? Some of you may get in for reasons known only to God while I find myself standing outside in the darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But what I do know is that leading someone else away from God seems to be something that Jesus had an issue with.

And now you know, too.

So, you do what you think is best to free people up, and I'll do exactly the same thing.

We'll just be working at odds with one another.

[SteelCurtain]

But I already knew that you believed that. I don't particularly care whether you think you'll be judged or I'll be judged. I believe that notion is as ridiculous as Jonah and the whale or Jesus walking on water. That wasn't the point.

The point was you vehemently denying (and even accusing me of having a dark and twisted mind to suggest) that fear and threats are used in service of the church as part of doctrine.

You denied it, (and thereby discounted many, many personal accounts both historical and contemporary) and then proceeded to employ that tactic in the very same post.

[Randy Carson]

But I already knew that you believed that. I don't particularly care whether you think you'll be judged or I'll be judged. I believe that notion is as ridiculous as Jonah and the whale or Jesus walking on water.  That wasn't the point.

The point was you vehemently denying (and even accusing me of having a dark and twisted mind to suggest) that fear and threats are used in service of the church as part of doctrine.

You denied it, (and thereby discounted many, many personal accounts both historical and contemporary) and then proceeded to employ that tactic in the very same post.

I assume you've read the NT, Steel.

And I assume you're familiar with both the love of God presented therein as well as the warnings about judgment and hell.

Now, in various places (maybe more than one thread...they aren't well-moderated and get WAY off-topic in this forum), I have argued that it is wrong to USE a one-sided or disproportionately skewed view of hell as a weapon with which to beat people (kids especially) into submission.

Some Protestant preachers do this, some parents do this...maybe some nuns did this in Catholic schools. It would be wrong in each and every case.

But it happened and it continues to happen.

However, I'm taking issue with one particular point; namely, your efforts to lead people away from God - whether in person or through this forum. Only you know what the truth is in this regard.

Jesus was pretty lenient about a lot of stuff...forgiving the woman caught in adultery, for example. But he didn't sound too lenient when it came to leading other people away from God.

Am I trying to scare you, Mike? Or am I just telling you like the Bible says it is?

You may have the last word on this topic.

And since the Poe has been banned, why not lock the thread after your final thoughts are posted?

[SteelCurtain]

Am I trying to scare you, Mike? Or am I just telling you like the Bible says it is?

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[rexbeccarox]

I assume you've read the NT, Steel.

And I assume you're familiar with both the love of God presented therein as well as the warnings about judgment and hell.

Now, in various places (maybe more than one thread...they aren't well-moderated and get WAY off-topic in this forum), I have argued that it is wrong to USE a one-sided or disproportionately skewed view of hell as a weapon with which to beat people (kids especially) into submission.

Some Protestant preachers do this, some parents do this...maybe some nuns did this in Catholic schools. It would be wrong in each and every case.

But it happened and it continues to happen.

However, I'm taking issue with one particular point; namely, your efforts to lead people away from God - whether in person or through this forum. Only you know what the truth is in this regard.

Jesus was pretty lenient about a lot of stuff...forgiving the woman caught in adultery, for example. But he didn't sound too lenient when it came to leading other people away from God.

Am I trying to scare you, Mike? Or am I just telling you like the Bible says it is?

You may have the last word on this topic.

And since the Poe has been banned, why not lock the thread after your final thoughts are posted?

(bold mine)

Oh, look!  Here's Randy telling us how to do our jobs again!  Whatta surprise!

Please keep preaching, Randy.  Preach about your gods, preach about how the forum is run; it's working out oh-so well.

[Jenny A]

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No, the problem is that Steel, and I, and many others read ALL the verses, not just for God so Loved the World.  And we ask questions like why would a omnipotent god need to sacrifice his son in order not to punish eternally for finite crimes? 

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If someone is opposed to God, how is that a finite crime? Moreover, how is ANY crime committed against an all-holy God finite?

How is ANY crime committed in a single space in time by a finite creature infinite?  Even if god existed and were infinite how would that make crimes committed by the finite infinite?  If I opposed a real god during my finite lifetime, how would that crime be infinite?  And since when if mere opposition a crime?

And if God chooses to take upon Himself the punishment that we deserved for our sins against God, how is that unfair to us (or to Jesus who IS God)?

You are skipping over the "deserved" part.  No crime a human could possibly commit deserves infinite punishment.  If you think so, you have failed to grasp either proportion or infinite. Secondly, it is not possible to take on the sins of another.  Even if I volunteer, hanging me won't excuse a murderer.

And we look at what god is supposed to have actually done (like ordering the death of all Egyptian first born or the death of everyone but young virgin women in whole apparently blameless villages) as opposed to declarations of fatherly love. 

Moses asked nicely. Pharaoh said no. Ten times.

So?  And those first born did what?  Pharaoh didn't die.  His son did, and apparently every other Egyptian's first born son, and the first born sheep, and cows, and everything else first born and male in  Egypt.  Translate this into real moral terms.  If Obama is guilty of murdering people with drones, is it moral to kill his daughters?  Because what god is supposed to have done is worse.  If a king, does evil, is it moral to kill the first sons of all of his subjects?  Surely you can't really believe that?

Apparently blameless? The Canaanites were slaughtered as capital punishment for their immoral lives. These were evil people, and I don't think you are in a position to take their side against God when you are ignorant of just how bad these folks were.

Really?  As far as I can tell from the Bible the only real Canaanite crime was not being god's chosen.

Knowing that you are among the few who might actually read something I recommend, here are two articles that explain this:

http://www.evidenceunseen.com/what-about...-genocide/
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter...canaanites

Sorry, the Canaanites had different gods and religious practices then the Jews.  You might call that evil.  If it involved blood sacrifice of people, I would call it evil.  However, there is plenty of evidence that the Jews did that too.  The story of Issac is about the end of that practice.  But Chronicles and Kings says pretty clearly it didn't really end.

But you can't call the attack of land not belonging to you defensive.  It isn't.  Even if you were attacked while immigrating across a desert.  

And the order was to kill all.  Men, sexually active women, and children.  Do you think the women and kids attacked Jews?

And we don't believe things simply because they are written in an old book, no matter how many people revere that book.  We don't believe extraordinary claims with minimal evidence. 

"Minimal" evidence? That's a far cry from the usual demand for "extraordinary" evidence. But the requirement is met by "sufficient" evidence, and that is available. It's why I post here, Jenny.[/Quote]

No, I do require extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims.  The evidence in the form of a book proclaiming miracles written long after events is minimal.

We don't believe a book that is contradicted by history and science.  

Gee, what a coincidence. Neither do I.

Ah, so you don't believe in the Bible?  Seriously.  Genesis creation contradicts everything we know about life and physics.  The Gospels contradict other sources particularly concerning the census and birth story.  Exodus contradicts Egyptian sources and archeology.

Ultimately the questions are two:  Is god real (to which I say most probably not); and if the Christian god is real is he good (to which I say obviously not unless like Dritch you define good as whatever god does).

Yes and yes.

There we must strongly disagree.

So I ask you is supporting people in unreal beliefs leading them astray?  If so every apologist is very very guilty.

There is nothing unreal about believing in God, Jenny. Billions of us know that. The fact that you don't is another matter.

Until you provide evidence, that's merely a bald statement.

So Steel listened to people in pain. People seeking answers.  And he let their own rationality find the answers.  And those answers were not only right, but not religious, and they made those people feel better.  Because a world without Yahweh is better.  I'd say he saved people from stumbling.

Right? Are you 100% sure of that, Jenny? I don't think you are.

There's very little I'm 100% sure of.  But I'm 99.99999999999999999999999999% sure.

[Randy Carson]

I assume you've read the NT, Steel.

And I assume you're familiar with both the love of God presented therein as well as the warnings about judgment and hell.

Now, in various places (maybe more than one thread...they aren't well-moderated and get WAY off-topic in this forum), I have argued that it is wrong to USE a one-sided or disproportionately skewed view of hell as a weapon with which to beat people (kids especially) into submission.

Some Protestant preachers do this, some parents do this...maybe some nuns did this in Catholic schools. It would be wrong in each and every case.

But it happened and it continues to happen.

However, I'm taking issue with one particular point; namely, your efforts to lead people away from God - whether in person or through this forum. Only you know what the truth is in this regard.

Jesus was pretty lenient about a lot of stuff...forgiving the woman caught in adultery, for example. But he didn't sound too lenient when it came to leading other people away from God.

Am I trying to scare you, Mike? Or am I just telling you like the Bible says it is?

You may have the last word on this topic.

And since the Poe has been banned, why not lock the thread after your final thoughts are posted?

(bold mine)

Oh, look!  Here's Randy telling us how to do our jobs again!  Whatta surprise!

Please keep preaching, Randy.  Preach about your gods, preach about how the forum is run; it's working out oh-so well.

Have you ever been a member of a well-run forum, becca?