Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach

[IATIA]

Even your bible makes reference to Zeus, Therefore Zeus is real.  Why do you not believe in Zeus?

I've made a mental note to address this question. It's not one that scholars take seriously, but this crowd seems to think it's a big deal, so I will eventually get around to it.

In fact, the bible references 34 gods. That should get you hopping a bit.

[Randy Carson]

If God were to make a more overt gesture of His existence, He would interfere with our free will.

It's just that simple.

However, my position (if anyone should ask) is that God HAS revealed Himself dramatically to some people AND they still had free will and the ability to choose how they would respond. Moses could have seen the burning bush, and run the other way. Mary could have said, "No."

You're a fucking liar.

I'm not sure how you conclude that I'm a liar from this. I think that if God WERE to go BIG on the revelation thing, it would be coercive in the sense that we really wouldn't have any choice but to go along with the program. For this reason, God has revealed himself in some dramatic ways to some people so that they would know that they WERE dealing with God, but without denying them the right to say no. Most obviously, since He is God, He would be in a position to only approach people that He knew would respond positively. Like Mary, for example. I doubt she was chosen purely at random, do you?

Jonah resisted God at first, but in the end, he accepted God's will. Did God violate Jonah's free will? Or did God simply know that Jonah needed more "nudging"? This is a big subject...one I am not really qualified to dwell on. But it seems to me that God knows whose hearts are ultimately open to Him and whose are permanently hardened by their own decisions and will.

[Crossless2.0]

You're a fucking liar.

I'm not sure how you conclude that I'm a liar from this. I think that if God WERE to go BIG on the revelation thing, it would be coercive in the sense that we really wouldn't have any choice but to go along with the program. For this reason, God has revealed himself in some dramatic ways to some people so that they would know that they WERE dealing with God, but without denying them the right to say no. Most obviously, since He is God, He would be in a position to only approach people that He knew would respond positively. Like Mary, for example. I doubt she was chosen purely at random, do you?

Jonah resisted God at first, but in the end, he accepted God's will. Did God violate Jonah's free will? Or did God simply know that Jonah needed more "nudging"? This is a big subject...one I am not really qualified to dwell on. But it seems to me that God knows whose hearts are ultimately open to Him and whose are permanently hardened by their own decisions and will.

God was "nudging" Jonah in the story?        Fuck, my ribs!  Why didn't you tell us you did stand-up?

[Longhorn]

I'm not sure how you conclude that I'm a liar from this. I think that if God WERE to go BIG on the revelation thing, it would be coercive in the sense that we really wouldn't have any choice but to go along with the program. For this reason, God has revealed himself in some dramatic ways to some people so that they would know that they WERE dealing with God, but without denying them the right to say no. Most obviously, since He is God, He would be in a position to only approach people that He knew would respond positively. Like Mary, for example. I doubt she was chosen purely at random, do you?

First you say that god can't reveal himself to people because that violates free will.

Now you say god can reveal himself and it doesn't violate our free will.

And you're asking why I conclude you're a liar?

Mary was instructed, not asked. Look up the passage. And do you really think 'I will impregnate you with myself' isn't 'going big on the revelation thing'?

Bah. Your god should seek a better lawyer. You're embarrassing him.

[Randy Carson]

The fact is that proving the existence of Jesus the man says nothing at all about the deity. This entire argument is based on a non sequitur.

NOTHING Randy is trying to prove here does anything for his deity. Fuck, Jesus could've existed, performed miracles AND risen from the dead for all I care, and that still wouldn't prove any fucker named Yahweh to exist.

Jesus spoke of this attitude...

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

[Randy Carson]

I'm not sure how you conclude that I'm a liar from this. I think that if God WERE to go BIG on the revelation thing, it would be coercive in the sense that we really wouldn't have any choice but to go along with the program. For this reason, God has revealed himself in some dramatic ways to some people so that they would know that they WERE dealing with God, but without denying them the right to say no. Most obviously, since He is God, He would be in a position to only approach people that He knew would respond positively. Like Mary, for example. I doubt she was chosen purely at random, do you?

Jonah resisted God at first, but in the end, he accepted God's will. Did God violate Jonah's free will? Or did God simply know that Jonah needed more "nudging"? This is a big subject...one I am not really qualified to dwell on. But it seems to me that God knows whose hearts are ultimately open to Him and whose are permanently hardened by their own decisions and will.

God was "nudging" Jonah in the story? 

The " " marks should have given you some clue that I was using the word for dramatic effect.

[Crossless2.0]

Thanks, Captain Obvious.

[Longhorn]

NOTHING Randy is trying to prove here does anything for his deity. Fuck, Jesus could've existed, performed miracles AND risen from the dead for all I care, and that still wouldn't prove any fucker named Yahweh to exist.

Jesus spoke of this attitude...

Alright, rev. Carson.

Please explain how someone rising from the dead proves Yahweh to exist.

[IATIA]

Fuck, Jesus could've existed, performed miracles AND risen from the dead for all I care, and that still wouldn't prove any fucker named Yahweh to exist.

But the bible says so.

[Randy Carson]

I'm not sure how you conclude that I'm a liar from this. I think that if God WERE to go BIG on the revelation thing, it would be coercive in the sense that we really wouldn't have any choice but to go along with the program. For this reason, God has revealed himself in some dramatic ways to some people so that they would know that they WERE dealing with God, but without denying them the right to say no. Most obviously, since He is God, He would be in a position to only approach people that He knew would respond positively. Like Mary, for example. I doubt she was chosen purely at random, do you?

First you say that god can't reveal himself to people because that violates free will.

No, I didn't say that God "can't reveal himself". In the passage that you just quoted, I said, "If God were to make a more overt gesture of His existence, He would interfere with our free will."

"More overt" does not mean "can't".

Now you say god can reveal himself and it doesn't violate our free will.

And you're asking why I conclude you're a liar?

Well, I guess you concluded that I'm lying because you're not really paying attention.

Mary was instructed, not asked. Look up the passage. And do you really think 'I will impregnate you with myself' isn't 'going big on the revelation thing'?

Mary was informed - not commanded, and she consented to God's plan just as He in His foreknowledge knew she would. “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.”