The Last Movie You Watched

[Anomalocaris]

Watching "The Duh Vinci Code". As bad as I remembered it.

I've never seen a movie that isn't as bad as I remembered it.

[Rev. Rye]

And the words in those two screencaps came from the exact same mouth, once addressing a person who knew exactly what he was doing (because he had just told him), about a minute after Jacques explained it, and then addressing a crowd that is utterly convinced that they're doing God's work, and might be more dissuaded by rhetoric claiming their crusade to be of the Devil than that it's just a political ploy. And research tells me the author of the original novel the film was based on (at least by the time he wrote it) wasn't even much of a believer. No word on Wajda's religious convictions (at least not at that point).

[Rev. Rye]

Decided to watch Gates to Paradise in full, and, yeah, it's pretty much as I expected. Overall, the way I see it, it's about people seeking validation (and redemption) for their worldly desires by taking part in a crusade that just so happens to need people just like them. Basically, imagine the 1212 equivalent to this:





With a side order of the Koch Brothers in the form of The Count.

And about the Count having sex with Jacques around the same time he pitched the idea of the Children's Crusade to him, while I'd be lying if I said the Catholic Church was more tolerant towards homosexuality than Fake Messiah thinks (20 years later, Pope Gregory IX would call people who engaged in sodomy "abominable persons despised by the world... more unclean than animals",) it's worth noting that the Count is nowhere near the only male in the cast attracted to Jacques. In fact, the Monk is probably the only person in the cast who isn't attracted to him, and there's plenty of other men in the cast besides Jacques, himself, and The Count. And yet, he never singles that out. It's honestly pretty bloody sufficient for the Monk to completely change his mind about the Children's Crusade due to Jacques admitting he lied about having a vision from God without the admission that the Count was a pederast. And, of course, his claiming that the Crusade is of the devil and not God, it makes sense to see it as a shift from talking frankly about it to someone who knows exactly what he's doing to speaking all ecclesiastically to a crowd of true believers.

[Fake Messiah]

Overall, the way I see it, it's about people seeking validation (and redemption) for their worldly desires by taking part in a crusade that just so happens to need people just like them.

Dude, they are little children, most of them pre pubescent.

it's worth noting that the Count is nowhere near the only male in the cast attracted to Jacques.

That's how they portrayed those that led children's crusade: as homosexual -> pedophiles -> demonic.

And, of course, his claiming that the Crusade is of the devil and not God, it makes sense to see it as a shift from talking frankly about it to someone who knows exactly what he's doing to speaking all ecclesiastically to a crowd of true believers.

Really? You think that 13th century priest/ monk would not otherwise honestly look at homosexuality as witchcraft?

[Rev. Rye]

Most of the "children" we see look like Teens. In fact, looking up the IMDb pages for the actors in the film, Jenny Agutter was the youngest credited member of the cast. Her age? Well, she was born in December 1952, and, barring any concrete dates for filming, let's be conservative and say she was 15 when she filmed it. Possibly 16. That's how young these children are. The boys would most likely have been confirmed and the girls would likely have gone through menarche. Therefore, besides the heavily carnal nature of their confessions gives the lie to the "they are little children, most of them are prepubescent" approach. Seriously, did we watch the same fucking movie?

Whether or not a real monk would not have seen homosexuality as witchcraft, honestly, it feels far too facile a reading for the film. Most of the few other reviews I've managed to find take a similar tack to me.

And if you're still inclined to think it's just some sort of Catholic propaganda whitewashing the Children's Crusades and blaming it all on the gays, bear in mind, Jerzy Andrzejewski (who wrote the novel this film was based upon) was himself gay (or at least bisexual), and as for his religious beliefs, well, in his earlier period, he was Catholic. After his work in the Resistance, however, he lost his faith in God, and it doesn't look like he ever regained it. By this point in his career, if anything, he was a secular humanist. So, an irreligious Gay/Bi man writing a novel about how the Catholic Church didn't deserve blame for the Children's Crusade, but homosexuality does. Makes so much sense. And before you go around saying "That was the novel, the director could have changed so much about it for the film!" It turns out that from what I've been able to find about the original novel, its themes aren't really that different between the film and novel.

Seriously, this information is pretty readily available online and knowing the context in which it was created should be illuminating.

[Fake Messiah]

Possibly 16. That's how young these children are.

Dude, Stephen of Cloyes (leader of one of Children's crusades) was 12 years old. And to say they were older because "youngest credited member of the cast was 15" is like saying that "Clockwork Orange" is about late 20s guy living with his parents because Malcolm McDowell was 27 at the time. Especially since most of the "actors" in "Gates of Paradise" were extras who were not credited.

And if you're still inclined to think it's just some sort of Catholic propaganda whitewashing the Children's Crusades and blaming it all on the gays

And it's not whitewashing of Catholicism? So then according to you they do blame the Catholic Church? Because in reality this was the blame of religious upbringing, so any deviation from it is whitewashing.

Or are you saying the movie blames church? Are you saying that all these these teenagers felt guilty for being gay and having wrong sexual feelings so they joined this religious trip to atone for their sins and that "atonement" is the blame on Catholic church for installing that shame in them? Is this what you claim?

bear in mind, Jerzy Andrzejewski (who wrote the novel this film was based upon) was himself gay (or at least bisexual)

I wouldn't talk much about the novel because I didn't read it so I don't know it. Also, it doesn't mean that if the writer was gay ("or at least bisexual") he couldn't write homophobic stuff. I mean take RW Fassbinder who always wrote gay characters as the most despicable beings as being petty, greedy, self centered, and was therefore accused of German LGBT community of homophobia in spite of Fassbinder himself being gay.
I'm just saying what I see in the final product.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Watching "The Duh Vinci Code". As bad as I remembered it.

I've never seen a movie that isn't as bad as I remembered it.

I have.  Plenty of times, I'll re-watch something I haven't seen in years and I'll like it much better than the first time around.

Boru

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Ishtar

[Rev. Rye]

Here's the thing you don't seem to be getting: THIS IS NOT A STRICTLY HISTORICAL ACCOUNT OF THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADES. IT'S AN ALLEGORY FOR GETTING CAUGHT UP IN MASS MOVEMENTS. IF YOU CANNOT GRASP THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT, YOU SIMPLY CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE MOVIE AND CERTAINLY NOT WHERE I'M COMING FROM WHEN I ARGUE ABOUT IT. It doesn't necessarily matter if Stephen de Cloyes was really twelve, because this isn't exactly meant to be his story. And even if it did, well, there's a world of difference between casting a man in his late twenties as a teenager and casting a teenager as a prepubescent child. What's the difference? Puberty! And if you balk at the fact that I keep pointing out their sexuality, well, the movie keeps making a point of bringing it up.

And if we're talking about blame... well, do you really think it's at all plausible that such a movement could have worked well if Christianity hadn't already been entrenched in European society and people didn't still think it was a good/plausible idea that Christians armed with their righteousness (and the pre-requisite weapons), that this would have gone anywhere?

And as for this question:

Are you saying that all these these teenagers felt guilty for being gay and having wrong sexual feelings so they joined this religious trip to atone for their sins and that "atonement" is the blame on Catholic church for installing that shame in them?

Aside from the fact that some of the boys in the trip are more into Jenny Agutter than Jacques, yes, their shame about their budding sexuality is certainly a crucial part of it, and it's the part that's most dwelled on in the film. That and the ideology that was already in the air that I described in the previous paragraph.

And, of course, in addition to being gay,Andrzejewski was also an atheist, so while a gay man might make unflattering views of gay people, it's harder for me to buy that an atheist in a communist nation would try to whitewash the Catholic Church's complicity in the Children's Crusade.

[no one]

Booksmart:
I was pleasantly surprised at the clever humor in this movie. However, the soundtrack was fucking awful!