Why I Am Pro-Life

[fr0d0]

It's a sensitive issue for the mother, not for anyone else.

Well there's the father too. But hey.

You are telling me that it's justified at this point in time to bring life into this world to a mother who does not want it, or isn't prepared to take care of it. That this would be a good thing to do, and to do this is to be in touch with your humanity?

Where do you get this stuff?!

I said that it's an ethical question. One which can't be avoided. You have to choose one way or another. That's your choice, not anyone elses if you're capable. Whatever you justify you have to live with. I don't envy anyone that descision. To me, the reality is that you are terminating a life. To you, it's not. Apparently.

To sacrifice for something that doesn't even know what "want" means, let alone to want to be born. The only reason to justify this is to say that it's "meant to be" born. And that is not something I subscribe to.

If the baby is meant to be born, it will be. Your descision plays a part in that, if you make one. You're once more lumping me in with anti abortionists. Is there an invisible poster here??

I'm not detached from my humanity enough to think that a mother who never prepared for this, should go through with this, spend the next 20 years....

....blah blah blah on your personal crusade against anti abortionists. Very nice. Now can you please address what I'm saying?

Potential doesn't triumph real, it doesn't triumph much if it requires so much sacrifice.

No one said that it did. {Potential} Life also doesn't deserve ignoring. To make a descision that you can live with, you need to address the problem squarely.

And frozen embryos. What's the issue here, truly? These embryos can go through IVF to give a couple a baby. Or they can be used for stem cells research and save lives. How do I disregard people's happiness and wellbeing in favour of embryos? I don't understand, it's very clear cut what is more important.

I don't know. What is the issue here?

Why do I not value potential human lives? because they're potential. If the world population was dying out I'd value them very much. But we're talking about sacrificing ourselves for these potentials that will never be babies. Those frozen ones, they certainly will never all get to be a baby. Why are you so sure that they'd dislike that?

You seem to be claiming that although you accept this as human life, you can give it no importance because a. it isn't sentient, and now b. the world isn't short of humans.

I have never mentioned anyone -having- to sacrifice. All I said was that this is an ethical choice: because this is a life. We can't ignore that fact. It's not like choosing between tea or coffee. There's something very important in the mix to us here: human life.

Women can know the choice they make and still have to make it. The choice is difficult -because- they realise what it is. Try telling a potential mother that a unique personality that she's started creating isn't important to her. That she should think of it as nothing more than any other unborn human.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Frodo, your avatar really creeps me out..

[pineapplebunnybounce]

It's a sensitive issue for the mother, not for anyone else.

Well there's the father too. But hey.

Not as much as it is the mother's. Sure, he's involved.

You are telling me that it's justified at this point in time to bring life into this world to a mother who does not want it, or isn't prepared to take care of it. That this would be a good thing to do, and to do this is to be in touch with your humanity?

Where do you get this stuff?!

I don't know, where did you get this stuff?

I said that it's an ethical question. One which can't be avoided. You have to choose one way or another. That's your choice, not anyone elses if you're capable. Whatever you justify you have to live with. I don't envy anyone that descision. To me, the reality is that you are terminating a life. To you, it's not. Apparently.

Of course it's a choice that can't be avoided. I actually don't know what you stance is, I've explained mine, but you haven't explained yours. If you even have one. What I italicized it's the just restating the reality, it doesn't explain your position.

Yes, you are terminating a life. I've never denied that. Said this so many times now.

To sacrifice for something that doesn't even know what "want" means, let alone to want to be born. The only reason to justify this is to say that it's "meant to be" born. And that is not something I subscribe to.

If the baby is meant to be born, it will be. Your descision plays a part in that, if you make one. You're once more lumping me in with anti abortionists. Is there an invisible poster here??

What I bolded: Yea, i don't understand people who talk like that. Is there a timeline already fixed? What's to happen in the future will happen? What the hell do you mean when you say meant to be?

What I italicized: IF you make a choice? You said before it's unavoidable and I agreed. How do you avoid making this decision?

I don't know what your stance is about abortion, some are ok, some are not ok, I really don't even know. You said yourself some reasons are justified, but not all. But I'm just trying to understand your point of view here, because I don't really care about changing your mind if you're not gonna tell others what to do. My stance is all reasons are justified. So yea, I took a lot of shots in the dark, because you won't spell it out.

I'm not detached from my humanity enough to think that a mother who never prepared for this, should go through with this, spend the next 20 years....

....blah blah blah on your personal crusade against anti abortionists. Very nice. Now can you please address what I'm saying?

See above. You're saying ethical ethical ethical, not a word beyond that.

Potential doesn't triumph real, it doesn't triumph much if it requires so much sacrifice.

No one said that it did. {Potential} Life also doesn't deserve ignoring. To make a descision that you can live with, you need to address the problem squarely.

For some people. Like you perhaps, who do value this embryo/fetus/zygote, it would be hard to live with. If you mean to say that your stance is people should realize they may not be able to live with it, well, I think those people realize it when they're making their choices, no? It's part of life though, not like a rewind button. You either have the baby and live with it, or you don't have it and live with it. It's not going to be easy for a lot of people, but if your point is just to say that it isn't easy for a lot of people ... that's rather obvious?

And frozen embryos. What's the issue here, truly? These embryos can go through IVF to give a couple a baby. Or they can be used for stem cells research and save lives. How do I disregard people's happiness and wellbeing in favour of embryos? I don't understand, it's very clear cut what is more important.

I don't know. What is the issue here?

You said it was an ethical issue. Which could mean anything for you.

Why do I not value potential human lives? because they're potential. If the world population was dying out I'd value them very much. But we're talking about sacrificing ourselves for these potentials that will never be babies. Those frozen ones, they certainly will never all get to be a baby. Why are you so sure that they'd dislike that?

You seem to be claiming that although you accept this as human life, you can give it no importance because a. it isn't sentient, and now b. the world isn't short of humans.

You skipped over the part that people have to sacrifice for it.

I have never mentioned anyone -having- to sacrifice.

But people do. Are you saying a baby can survive on its own without help from others? Are you saying it's possible for a child to be born and if no one ever took the time out of their day to care for it it'd survive? Come on. And as far as pregnancy goes, it's a sacrifice, as I'm sure you know. There's a chance of death in every pregnancy, this chance is dramatically low in North America but it is not so in many parts of the world.

All I said was that this is an ethical choice: because this is a life. We can't ignore that fact. It's not like choosing between tea or coffee. There's something very important in the mix to us here: human life.

Yes that is really all you've said.

Women can know the choice they make and still have to make it. The choice is difficult -because- they realise what it is. Try telling a potential mother that a unique personality that she's started creating isn't important to her. That she should think of it as nothing more than any other unborn human.

I don't tell potential mothers anything. Why would I presume to tell someone what is or is not important to them? Why are you presuming what is or is not important to them?

And most of all, what have this got to do with what you or I feel about this subject?

Is this the point you're trying to make all along? That's it's not an easy choice? Because if so ... time wasted.

[fr0d0]

p

You want my opinion on what I think is ethical??

Every situation is unique. It isn't possible to say either way. I trust that people weigh up the pros and cons and make the right selection. All I add to the mix is that human life begins at conception (P). That your choice should take that into account.

What is my position on IVF? I think every situation is different. Considering P is necessary.
Maybe all of those choices you've given examples of are changed slightly when factoring P.

That's my position.

[DeistPaladin]

It's not "potential" human life, it IS human life.

OK, we've now belabored the technical definitions.

What...
is...
your...
point?

[DeistPaladin]

P.S. For those prancing around singing about how "science" is on their side because of this technical definition...

"Science" doesn't weigh in on political or moral issues. It is not "on" anyone's side. You are simply citing a technical definition and acting under the delusion that somehow this scores a point for your team.

If you want to know why it doesn't, every skin cell in your body is a human cell and counts as "human life". You commit a genocide with a kill list rivaling Hitler and Stalin ever time you scratch your arm. We don't care about these "lives" from a moral or ethical standpoint because these human cells don't have brains.

[bladevalant546]

Okay, let put it in perspective and maybe we can stop using personal emotions that were taught when we were mentality vulnerable to influence. Also from political (obviously) motivations, with little regard to what is actually the issue. Let us put away our religious, or philosophical lenses and look at abortion. This is the plain truth, and abortion is simply an artificial interruption of human fetal development. However, there is a point regardless of how blind you want to make yourself you will kill an unborn infant. That infant roughly 20 weeks in, has a functional brain and is already learned from outside stimuli. So yes at this point if you agree with it, you are killing a human unborn baby. I do not care anymore if society wants to allow it, but stop avoid what it is and just take responsibility. Second religion cannot answer by which the "soul" enters the child there is no point the bible states the child is given on. It is only assumption, but not everyone feels that way. I think abortion is avoid real solutions, it is primitive and as humans we should strive to either perfect contraception or find some damn way fix this issue. As it stands men who want the child cannot have a say, it cannot happen because it is inside a woman, so it is what it is. How about we progress humanity for a change and choose an option that is not destructive?

[orogenicman]

p

You want my opinion on what I think is ethical??

Every situation is unique. It isn't possible to say either way. I trust that people weigh up the pros and cons and make the right selection. All I add to the mix is that human life begins at conception (P). That your choice should take that into account.

What is my position on IVF? I think every situation is different. Considering P is necessary.
Maybe all of those choices you've given examples of are changed slightly when factoring P.

That's my position.

Repeatedly stating the ill-informed opinion that human life begins at conception adds nothing to the mix, actually.

[Minimalist]

How about we progress humanity for a change and choose an option that is not destructive?

Destructive to whom? You sound quite willing to condemn a woman to a life time of servitude raising a kid she does not want. What fucking business is it of yours?

[DeistPaladin]

Okay, let put it in perspective and maybe we can stop using personal emotions that were taught when we were mentality vulnerable to influence. Also from political (obviously) motivations, with little regard to what is actually the issue. Let us put away our religious, or philosophical lenses and look at abortion.

I used to be "pro-life" until I studied some basic facts about fetal development and realized there's no there, there (i.e. no brain so no being so no right to life) until about week 21. Last statistics I saw revealed that over 90% of abortions occur within the first trimester, well before this time. I admitted I was wrong and moved to the other camp. So thank you for your speech on open-mindedness but, in my case, it's not needed.

Confronted with the fact that they're protecting the life of a mindless collection of cells, the so-called "pro-lifers" will fall back to the "under construction" argument. Since the advocates for this position are fond of strict definitions, can we agree that "not yet = no"? It doesn't yet have a brain. So it isn't yet a being. So it's not a being. So it has no right to life. There's no person there.

Additionally, I've already exposed that this is not about "right to life" at all. The reality that most "pro-lifers" would "allow" abortion in the case of rape only proves that point.

If you people REALLY believed that this unborn was a living being with rights to life, then how can you sentence it to death for the crimes of its father?

How morally bankrupt is that?

This is not about "pro-life". This is about pro-I-want-to-wag-my-finger-at-the-'Jezabel'-who-had-what-I-think-had-'irresponsible'-or-'immoral'-sex-and-tell-her-'honey-you-made-your-bed-so-you-now-lie-in-it'. Just be honest with yourselves and with others and admit it already. Well, hey, if you want to preach at the "harlots", that's what soap boxes and the first amendment are for. Tell it on the mountain but don't tell it on Capitol Hill.

And I suppose you so-called pro-lifers never realized just how complex the issue is? You do no there are all kinds of conditions under which abortion might occur outside of the "Jezebel" scenario that you're so fond of? How about the mother who's egg implanted in her Fallopian Tube, threatening her life and making her expectant child non-viable? She's probably already distraught over losing her child under this tragic condition. The last thing she needs is one of you idiots yelling at her as she goes to have the necessary operation to save her life. How about the still borne that needs to be "cleaned out" before it become gangrenous? You think she needs a lecture from the Catholic crusader types camped outside the clinic?

Now for those of you would would be so magnanimous as to "allow" abortion under these medically needed conditions, how is a patient supposed to get them with zealots bombing clinics and state representatives playing doctor by closing clinics down through needless regulations?

And how is the rape victim to get an abortion again? Even if the clinics stay open, how do we determine if she does qualify for one of the conditions under which you would "allow" it? Do we take her word on it? If so, then every woman wanting a choice in the matter can just claim she was raped by an unknown assailant. Or do we wait for a conviction? What if there's an appeal to that conviction? How many months does the court take to try a rape trial again?

The laws we have on the books now protect the fetus roughly around the time period you are concerned with. After week 24, you can't just pop into the local abortion clinic and announce you've changed your mind. Only when the mother's life is in danger is it allowed under these conditions.

And finally, just to repeat:
No brain = no being = no right to life. Q.E.D.