Why I Am Pro-Life

[Rahul]

1. DNA and science would say that a zygote+ is human. Your objection is anecdotal.
2. A zygote + is very much alive. The brain dead person is technically alive. Personality is not essential for life.
3. That's a shocking statement
4. It (zygote +) is very human. Precisely human, and alive.

It's very interesting that you are getting very emotional here when trying to make a point that we shouldn't treat this subject emotionally.

Would you expand on point 3? Slave said that there was a high probability that this human was going to be cognisant in the future. You seem to have assumed the opposite.

Woke up sober. Let's do this.

1: If I cut off my finger DNA and science would determine it's a human. ...

I don't even know what else to say after that.

So fucking what?

2: I agree. It's alive. But it's not a human with a personality. It's just a thing. So?

3: What's a shocking statement? Missed it. Please pick it out for me.

4: Yeah, it's precisely human. Just like my fingernail I cut off yesterday. Did I commit murder? No. I just clipped my fingernails.

I've already covered this.

[fr0d0]

Sober isn't enough Rahul. Coherent is a minimum

[Minimalist]

It's a gob of goo, Frods. It is not a human being.

[Rahul]

Sober isn't enough Rahul. Coherent is a minimum

I'll review myself tomorrow. You might be right. Can't be sure till I sober up.

Peace friend.

[Creed of Heresy]

No, you're actually quite coherent, it's just some people don't want to get the point because it takes them out of their comfort zone and then their little bubble of pseudo-reality might get popped.

People love to cling to their preconceptions. Even if they're wrong. ESPECIALLY when they're wrong, in fact; the harder you try to pull them away, they harder they'll cling.

Ego is funny like that.

[fr0d0]

It's a gob of goo, Frods. It is not a human being.

Undisputed facts:
1. as soon as the cells start to divide, science classes it: the fertilised egg, as human
2. zygotes don't have a personality, but they do possess all of the information that will eventually lead to the formation of a person
3. zygotes don't have feelings. They are completely unaware of their death
4. the law on abortion (that applies to me) seems to be based upon sentience.
5. pregnancies naturally abort for many reasons
6. Deciding to terminate a life once you know it has begun developing, is always terminating a life.

[Creed of Heresy]

It's a gob of goo, Frods. It is not a human being.

Undisputed facts:
1. as soon as the cells start to divide, science classes it: the fertilised egg, as human
2. zygotes don't have a personality, but they do possess all of the information that will eventually lead to the formation of a person
3. zygotes don't have feelings. They are completely unaware of their death
4. the law on abortion (that applies to me) seems to be based upon sentience.
5. pregnancies naturally abort for many reasons
6. Deciding to terminate a life once you know it has begun developing, is always terminating a life.

You keep saying "science classifies an embryo as a human," Frodo. What. Science. Are. You. Citing? You had better not be basing these claims off of Robert P. George because if you are I'm going to tear your claims a new asshole...

Everyone keeps asking you, Frodo, WHAT SCIENCE. Answer the damn question and stop sidestepping it.

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“As a materialist, I think it has been demonstrated that an embryo is a separate body and entity, and not merely (as some really did used to argue) a growth on or in the female body. There used to be feminists who would say that it was more like an appendix or even-this was seriously maintained-a tumor. That nonsense seems to have stopped. Of the considerations that have stopped it, one is the fascinating and moving view provided by the sonogram, and another is the survival of ‘premature’ babies of feather-like weight, who have achieved ‘viability’ outside the womb. … The words ‘unborn child,’ even when used in a politicized manner, describe a material reality.”
-Christopher Hitchens, God is Not Great

Pro-life isn't a stance reserved for the religious.

You should've kept reading that entry.

However, this only opens the argument rather than closes it. There may be many circumstances in which it is not desirable to carry a fetus to full term. Either nature or god appears to appreciate this, since a very large number of pregnancies are “aborted,” so to speak, because of malformations, and are politely known as “miscarriages.” Sad though this is, it is probably less miserable an outcome than the vast number of deformed or idiot children who would otherwise have been born, or stillborn, or whose brief lives would have been a torment to themselves and others. As with evolution in general, therefore, in utero we see a microcosm of nature and evolution itself. In the first place we begin as tiny forms that are amphibian, before gradually developing lungs and brains (and growing and shedding that now useless coat of fur) and then struggling out and breathing fresh air after a somewhat difficult transition.
Likewise, the system is fairly pitiless in eliminating those who never had a very good chance of surviving in the first place: our ancestors on the savannah were not going to survive in their turn if they had a clutch of sickly and lolling infants to protect against predators. Here the analogy of evolution might not be to Adam Smith’s “invisible hand” (a term that I have always distrusted) so much as to Joseph Schumpeter’s model of “creative destruction,” whereby we accustom ourselves to a certain amount of natural failure, taking into account the pitilessness of nature and extending back to the remote prototypes of our species.

Thus, not all conceptions are, or ever were, going to lead to births. And ever since the mere struggle for existence began to abate, it has been an ambition of the human intelligence to gain control over the rate of reproduction. Families who are at the mercy of mere nature, with its inevitable demand for profusion, will be tied to a cycle that is not much better than animal. The best way of achieving a measure of control is by prophylaxis, which has been restlessly sought since records were kept and which has in our own time become relatively foolproof and painless. The second-best fallback solution, which may sometimes be desirable for other reasons, is termination of pregnancy: an expedient which is regretted by many even when it has been undertaken in dire need. All thinking people recognize a painful conflict of rights and interests in this question, and strive to achieve a balance. The only proposition that is completely useless, either morally or practically, is the wild statement that sperms and eggs are all potential lives which must not be prevented from fusing and that, when united however briefly, have souls and must be protected by law.

Paraphrasing and quote-mining is a tactic used only by those who want the easiest answer without actually having to answer the question for themselves. Hitchens does not back your stance up on this; in fact he quite effectively states that the answer is a difficult one and subject to the situation, which in effect is essentially a pro-choice stance. He was a mixture of pro-life and pro-choice but in very complicated ways. To quote him further:

Hitchens: Two points I wanted to make. One, that the term "unborn child" has been made a propaganda phrase by the people who called themselves "pro-life." But it's something that has moral and scientific realities. It's become very evident indeed that this is not just a growth upon the mother.


If that's true, what are the problems? It need not qualify the woman's right to choose. It need not. But it would be a very bold person to say that what was being chosen didn't come up. What I argued in my column was this was a social phenomenon. This is the next generation we're talking about. Considering the unborn as candidate members-- potential members--of the next generation; wouldn't that strengthen the argument for socialized medicine, child care, prenatal care?


There's a reason why this is the only country where it's a mania. Because it's between the fundamentalists and the possessive individualists. It's ruined politics, absorbed a huge amount of energy that should have been spent elsewhere.


Q: But you're not agreeing with the religious right on this?


Hitchens: No one who is not for the provision of sex education, contraception, and child care should be allowed to have any position on abortion at all--and those who do should be met with fusillades. Women will decide it, that's a matter of fact, as much as a principle.


Q: So, what is your position regarding the continued legal status of abortion?


Hitchens: There's no choice but choice. I mean that to sound the way it does sound. But there are choices about the conditions in which that choice is made.


I'm very much opposed to euthanasia. I've never understood why more of these people can't commit suicide. Why do they need a Doctor Kevorkian? It's very theatrical. I believe in a right to decide.

But I'm against all blurrings. There's a very sharp dividing line in the case of an infant. I'm against fooling with that. Everything in me rebels against that. The conclusion I've come to as to why it's such a toxic question in America is it isn't about the rights of the unborn child. I think it's an argument about patriarchy. It is a metaphor for the status of women in what is still in some ways a frontier society.

Next time, quote sources we haven't all extensively read and are very familiar with.

[Slave]

@Creed of Heresy: I don't want to answer for fr0d0 but I will address the question of what science claims an embryo as human.

http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Mar/8/...onception/

Also here's a site that lists off scientific resources that back up the claim that human life begins at conception:

http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articl...otes2.html

The links go into detail about it more than I care to here, so please read them (the second is not exactly reading material, more of proving a point). However let's define life for the purposes of this discussion:

Life: the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death:
the origins of life

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/life

An embryo displays all signs of life. As for reproduction, while an embryo cannot reproduce, it has the genetic coding enabling it to reproduce. It is simply a matter of growth phases. Not all living plants are in a stage whereby they are able to reproduce, but they are still alive, just as an embryo is. It is a human life because it is a human embryo. This is just common sense. The embryo is a single entity, separate from the mother, complete with a full genetic code and human DNA. Therefore it is a human life.

The fingernail argument is lame and fails to take into account genetic determinism. A baby has a heart, lungs, fingernails, eyelashes and a circulatory system. The blastocyst you had none of these things, and yet the blastocyst you is exactly that collection of cells that gave rise to all those specialized parts of the baby that eventually got born. Fingernails do not an embryo make.

As for your remark that I quote mined Hitchens, I didn't quote mine him. Nothing in the quote that follows directly contradicts my viewpoint on the matter and in fact it is essentially exactly the same.

The only proposition that is completely useless, either morally or practically, is the wild statement that sperms and eggs are all potential lives which must not be prevented from fusing and that, when united however briefly, have souls and must be protected by law.

When have I argued that sperm and eggs are potential lives? Perhaps if I were also against contraception, your objection to my quoting Hitchens in that context would make sense, but I am not against contraception. In fact I am certain that more contraception is exactly what we need as it will lessen the demand for abortions. Decreasing abortions is definitely something I support.

There's no choice but choice. I mean that to sound the way it does sound. But there are choices about the conditions in which that choice is made.

I also expressed the sentiment that in many ways I am still pro-choice, a few pages back, depending upon circumstance.

I want to make it clear from here on out, before any members posting here derail my arguments again, that I understand that it isn't as simple as a fetus is a human life therefore abortion must be illegal. All I have stood to argue is that an embryo > fetus > baby is a human life and not just a clump of cells comparable to my pinkie that have no rights whatsoever. I am also still not 100% comfortable with the notion of 'right to life', as I do not view life as a right perse. I do think it is more along the lines of 'a right to not be killed'. A stance which is not often purported by the typical pro-life religious sector as they tend to be pro-death penalty as well which makes little sense to me (but hey, they're religious, no surprise).

You guys can argue all you want until you are blue in the face, but I have arrived at this uncomfortable conclusion based on facts alone. It is problematic however, as if this assertion is true (as I claim it to be), that an embryo + is a human life, then what happens to abortion legally, and where do we draw ethical lines regarding the issue?

I am still not decided upon the intricacies of the legality issue and I see problems with the logical progression of my argument, but since that hasn't come up in this debate yet I won't go further.

---

Just related to the Hitchens part of our discussion, I want to post this. I am not using Hitchens as a banner man or anything, it's just the way he phrases his reasons for being part of the pro-life movement reflect my own:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbYCQ7w_wFs

[Rahul]

6. Deciding to terminate a life once you know it has begun developing, is always terminating a life.

Stomping on a cockroach is terminating a life. We don't have laws against it. Because it's not a person. Nor is aborting a fetus terminating a human. It's just aborting a fetus.

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You guys can argue all you want until you are blue in the face, but I have arrived at this uncomfortable conclusion based on facts alone.

It's not an uncomfortable conclusion. It's just an illogical one. One based on you looking into the future and being a scryer. Well that's just weird.

Why are you doing that?

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I would feel no moral guilt over ending it. None. I don't play the lottery. The odds are too great against you. That's just a failed, could have been, human. Living corpse.(3)

Would you expand on point 3? Slave said that there was a high probability that this human was going to be cognisant in the future. You seem to have assumed the opposite.

Wow, I was drunk. Ahem.

You can't kill a future person.

Otherwise if anyone ever "cock blocks" a dude from having sex with a female you might have just "killed" a future person.

You don't know if that encounter was going to lead to pregnancy.

[Slave]

We're not talking a hypothetical future person though. We're talking about a growing human. My hypothetical question regarding the brain dead human with a high probability of gaining higher cognitive function was to demonstrate the flaws in the thinking that it isn't a person now = okay to terminate their life when in reality if this were to happen, no one could justify killing them knowing that given time that person will no longer be brain dead. It would be robbing them of their chance at living for being a temporary inconvenience.