refuting misconceptions:1-women in Islam

[mo3taz3nbar]

Is it better to rape (which causes harm) or to masturbate (which causes no harm)? For a healthy man to think that rape is ok, he must be taught to not empathise with the victim. He must be convinced that she deserves it and it's his duty to punish her, and to have fun doing it. In other words, he must be taught by immoral dogmas, such as islam. If he is not naturally aroused by violence, he will only get aroused by it when falsely taught it is not really violence.

you dont think there is other choices?like marriage for example? you think that if a man dont masterbate he will rape?you dont think a human being can control himself?

especially in the muslim world where the wife must always say yes to it in obedience.

wierd claim and i dont know why you are claiming this?

Do not the koran and muslim societies EXPECT it from wives? They are there to fuck and make babies. Also, to do housework. There are no other options for an adult woman.

you are just claiming things with no knowledge at all its all wrong and i dont know where you get this from anyway get me your evidence for that

Because most of them are missing their organs of sexual enjoyment, their clitorises. If they are lucky enough to be in the unmutilated minority, they must also be lucky enough to find their assigned husbands sexually attractive. Many women are dying from the mutilation too, by the way. In Africa 200 boys die every year from (non-sexually disabling when done correctly) circumcisions compared to more than 6,000,000 girls die from the (sexually disabling - that's why it's done!) mutilation every year, just in the Sudan alone. Here's a video with lots of facts from SkepChick on youtube (as ...user/rkwatson)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/medica...241221.stm
it has nothing to do with islam its a cultural things done by few people around the world from different places and different religion(in islam its preferred to get the boy circumcised)
and in egypt if a doctor caught doing circumcisation to a girl he goes to jail for 5 years

Only when there are 4 male witnesses, or something similar. Tell us what the koran says about rape and other sex laws. Many rapes are not considered rapes by abrahamic religion believers. In almost all cases, in islamic countries, the rape victim is punished by the false claims that she did it willingly or wanted it to happen or in some way brought it upon herself. It is almost always declared to not be a rape when it really is. I would put a zillion links and videos here as proof, but we all know it is true, and it's too depressing to spend much time viewing. In some cases, she may not be blamed, but is expected to 'marry' her rapist.

first of all you are talking about abrahamic religions and there is a lot differences between them but probably you dont know. second what the Quran says about having sex if aman and a woman cought having sex in public(witnessed by 4 persons)each of them get 80 lashes if not married and if married both will be stoned. about the rape the guy who commit rape stoned and nothing to the woman of course about marrying her rapist thats not right nothing say that in islam and i dont know about the law

I wish I could magically bring freedom to those countries who are currently stuck in an islamic theocracy, especially the women, since they are getting an especially shitty ride over there.

believe me they are more respected and happy than you

You have shown only parts that clearly do NOT offer equality or freedom to women. Your quotes all confirm what I think. You have not convinced me that I am under any misconceptions regarding how islam affects women.

of course you dont get it

Well, the ones living as mutilated muslim sexslave/'wives' probably get treated a lot better when they pretend you non-modern men are great lovers. Your future wife will probably do the same if she wants you to treat her well. She will want the approval of her husband, and therefore society, and therefore the god her society has convinced her is real. The genuine pleasure on her face afterwards is there because she is happy she pleased you, not because she had fun from the sex. She knows that if she has a good attitude that you like regarding sex, she will get your approval.

lol the same weird claims without evidence

By the way, this reminds me. I have heard that if a woman chooses to dress in clothing designated as men's clothing, they are punished. If I wear a boring loose factory style workshirt, with a man's tshirt under, and workboots, am I still being immodest? Or does sexuality no longer apply here, meaning it's gender only, meaning that you still need to be able to quickly identify all the lower caste women in a crowd quickly, and that they of course can't work in many jobs that require comfortable clothing.

she can wear whatever she want as long as it covers her body except face and hands
ok scented am done with that before you claim something plz just google it if you find it has anything to do with islam tell me about it if not am not here to talk about cultural problems and answer videos from youtube so plz dont throw things on me before at least getting me the verse that say it

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Clarification: By adult, I mean 9 years old (6 for the housework part), such as the prophet Mohammed's wife

http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/madamayeshah/index.htm
she was 19 years old not 9
some of the muslim scholars made a big mistake by answering what some people claims about marriage at 9(as it was normal to marry after pubirty in this time) and many people thought that means she was really 9 when she got married which is wrong

[Scented Nectar]

No Mo, I'll leave it up to you to disprove the stuff I said (Oh the irony, where have we all heard that one). There is a limit to the effort I will go to in backing up my claims. I do not make a habit of recording references to every bit of info I come across that has led to my forming beliefs and opinions. I think I've made most of the points I wanted to make. Islam sucks in regards to women and human rights in general. The other religions have done so too, but they are not doing it as much as the muslims in current times.

[mo3taz3nbar]

No Mo, I'll leave it up to you to disprove the stuff I said (Oh the irony, where have we all heard that one). There is a limit to the effort I will go to in backing up my claims. I do not make a habit of recording references to every bit of info I come across that has led to my forming beliefs and opinions. I think I've made most of the points I wanted to make. Islam sucks in regards to women and human rights in general. The other religions have done so too, but they are not doing it as much as the muslims in current times.

scented you are wrong as you are making your idea about religion by just watching videos and reading uncredible resources your beliefs are formed without you getting sure by yourself searching and understanding if what was told to you is right or wrong and am not blaming you thats how most of people form their beliefs and end up with a lot of wrong and confusing ideas.
i tried to answer most of your questions but forgive me if there is something i didnt answer and just asked for evidence as i know you will not find in the Quran any of your claims and i hope that you read my first post again as some of your claims was contradicting the verses i quoted from the Quran itself

[Minimalist]

you dont think there is other choices?like marriage for example?

You tell me.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/17/world/...youth.html

Here in Egypt and across the Middle East, many young people are being forced to put off marriage, the gateway to independence, sexual activity and societal respect. Stymied by the government’s failure to provide adequate schooling and thwarted by an economy without jobs to match their abilities or aspirations, they are stuck in limbo between youth and adulthood.

“I can’t get a job, I have no money, I can’t get married, what can I say?” Mr. Sayyid said one day after becoming so overwhelmed that he refused to go to work, or to go home, and spent the day hiding at a friend’s apartment.

In their frustration, the young are turning to religion for solace and purpose, pulling their parents and their governments along with them.

With 60 percent of the region’s population under the age of 25, this youthful religious fervor has enormous implications for the Middle East. More than ever, Islam has become the cornerstone of identity, replacing other, failed ideologies: Arabism, socialism, nationalism.

Instead of doing something useful....like jerking off....they apparently sit around reading pointless old books.

[AtheistPhil]

you dont think there is other choices?like marriage for example?

Well, marriage costs a lot, masturbation is free. One solution seems easier.......fap fap fap fap :p

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especially in the muslim world where the wife must always say yes to it in obedience.

wierd claim and i dont know why you are claiming this?

Do not the koran and muslim societies EXPECT it from wives? They are there to fuck and make babies. Also, to do housework. There are no other options for an adult woman.

you are just claiming things with no knowledge at all its all wrong and i dont know where you get this from anyway get me your evidence for that.

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I think she may refer to 2:223 and 4:34 where women must be obedient to Allah, and Allah tell men that they can fuck their women whenever and however they want, as long as they do some good deeds beforehands (or asks Allah to give them new children).

and in egypt if a doctor caught doing circumcisation to a girl he goes to jail for 5 years

The proper term is not circumcision it's female genital mutilation.

what the Quran says about having sex if aman and a woman cought having sex in public(witnessed by 4 persons)each of them get 80 lashes if not married and if married both will be stoned.

Therefore it ain't no misconception that Islam sometimes recommends stoning, and it applies to fucking in public.................................................this is fucked up. period.

You have shown only parts that clearly do NOT offer equality or freedom to women. Your quotes all confirm what I think. You have not convinced me that I am under any misconceptions regarding how islam affects women.

of course you dont get it

From what I read, Islam at the very least imposes very specific and strict "roles" to men and women, and I don't call that Freedom, at all.

By the way, this reminds me. I have heard that if a woman chooses to dress in clothing designated as men's clothing, they are punished. If I wear a boring loose factory style workshirt, with a man's tshirt under, and workboots, am I still being immodest? Or does sexuality no longer apply here, meaning it's gender only, meaning that you still need to be able to quickly identify all the lower caste women in a crowd quickly, and that they of course can't work in many jobs that require comfortable clothing.

she can wear whatever she want as long as it covers her body except face and hands.

So, the "covering one's body" thing IS COMPULSORY in the end !

But you said:

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I don’t know why everyone is making a big deal of this if a woman wants to show her body its freedom and if a woman wants to cover u attack her?i never understood this but from the comments I found here in the forums I got that most of u think that they are forced to wear like that and that is so not true
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.”(Quran 2:256)
no one(father,husband,brother or even mother) has the right to force a woman to wear hijab its her choice I live in a muslim country some is wearing hijab and some is not wearing

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Please try to stay coherent Moataz.

[mo3taz3nbar]

I think she may refer to 2:223 and 4:34 where women must be obedient to Allah, and Allah tell men that they can fuck their women whenever and however they want, as long as they do some good deeds beforehands (or asks Allah to give them new children).

that verse was revealed because the arabs has certain thoughts about sex with their wives that was making their wives something like bad luck and that was revealed to show us to show more respect to women during sex. and the good deeds you are talking about is to care for her feelings and emotions as you do for yourself during sex(which till now some guys are ignoring that we were told to take care of this 1400 years before)

Therefore it ain't no misconception that Islam sometimes recommends stoning, and it applies to fucking in public.................................................this is fucked up. period.

the stoning rarely happen in any country that applies it as if anyone having sex he will take care not to be seen by 4 persons (i think that is hard to happen even if its ok to have sex in your country)

From what I read, Islam at the very least imposes very specific and strict "roles" to men and women, and I don't call that Freedom, at all.

you have the freedom to do the good thing or to do the bad thing

So, the "covering one's body" thing IS COMPULSORY in the end !
But you said:

I don’t know why everyone is making a big deal of this if a woman wants to show her body its freedom and if a woman wants to cover u attack her?i never understood this but from the comments I found here in the forums I got that most of u think that they are forced to wear like that and that is so not true
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.”(Quran 2:256)
no one(father,husband,brother or even mother) has the right to force a woman to wear hijab its her choice I live in a muslim country some is wearing hijab and some is not wearing

Please try to stay coherent Moataz.

lol you cant get the difference between compulsory and punishment by god when i say no compulsion in religion it means a human cant force a human to be muslim or cant force women to wear hijab but it doesnt mean that god will not punish her. by saying she should cover her body except her face and hands i mean that this is how she supposed to wear in order to be obediant to god

[Scented Nectar]

Mo, it sounds like you are saying that it's ok for men to rape their wives because otherwise the wives are bad luck and you think that wiferape shows them respect? What the fuck? Also, now you say that the husband gets to be in charge of her emotions too during sex. He takes care of both his own and hers. I guess she is too weak and stupid and emotional to take charge of her own brain. Pathetic that you believe shit like this.

[mo3taz3nbar]

Mo, it sounds like you are saying that it's ok for men to rape their wives because otherwise the wives are bad luck and you think that wiferape shows them respect? What the fuck? Also, now you say that the husband gets to be in charge of her emotions too during sex. He takes care of both his own and hers. I guess she is too weak and stupid and emotional to take charge of her own brain. Pathetic that you believe shit like this.

ok am afraid that my language is not that clear so before answering i just want to ask other members do anyone are getting that am saying what scented claims??????

[AtheistPhil]

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I think she may refer to 2:223 and 4:34 where women must be obedient to Allah, and Allah tell men that they can fuck their women whenever and however they want, as long as they do some good deeds beforehands (or asks Allah to give them new children).

that verse was revealed because the arabs has certain thoughts about sex with their wives that was making their wives something like bad luck and that was revealed to show us to show more respect to women during sex. and the good deeds you are talking about is to care for her feelings and emotions as you do for yourself during sex(which till now some guys are ignoring that we were told to take care of this 1400 years before)

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2:223 (from Abdullah Yussuf Ali) "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah."

If your explanation was the original intent of this verse, why did they not write explicitly about feelings and emotions, or at least something like "be good to her during the act" ? The message is not clear at all, it seems like a general advice to do some good acts for both of them without specifying which acts. Moreover, it says "BEFOREHAND" (and all translations agree that it is something done BEFORE the act) so it can't be to care about her during the act.

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Therefore it ain't no misconception that Islam sometimes recommends stoning, and it applies to fucking in public.................................................this is fucked up. period.

the stoning rarely happen in any country that applies it as if anyone having sex he will take care not to be seen by 4 persons (i think that is hard to happen even if its ok to have sex in your country)

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Oh I can totally rely to your argument! Even myself I sometimes kill people for fun, but don't worry, I DO IT EXTREMELY RARELY and I make sure to let noone see me![/sarcasm] The rarity doesn't make it OK and is no excuse at all ! I cannot respect a text which demands to kill someone for having sex in public. If it's in the Qur'an (and I'd like to have the quote) then no matter how great the rest of the book might be (and it certainly is not!), it is still sick !
Same thing for the 80 lashes (24:2)

From what I read, Islam at the very least imposes very specific and strict "roles" to men and women, and I don't call that Freedom, at all.

you have the freedom to do the good thing or to do the bad thing

If there is a punishment directly afterward it's not freedom.

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So, the "covering one's body" thing IS COMPULSORY in the end !
But you said:

I don’t know why everyone is making a big deal of this if a woman wants to show her body its freedom and if a woman wants to cover u attack her?i never understood this but from the comments I found here in the forums I got that most of u think that they are forced to wear like that and that is so not true
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.”(Quran 2:256)
no one(father,husband,brother or even mother) has the right to force a woman to wear hijab its her choice I live in a muslim country some is wearing hijab and some is not wearing

Please try to stay coherent Moataz.

lol you cant get the difference between compulsory and punishment by god when i say no compulsion in religion it means a human cant force a human to be muslim or cant force women to wear hijab but it doesnt mean that god will not punish her. by saying she should cover her body except her face and hands i mean that this is how she supposed to wear in order to be obediant to god

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So you're saying that you encounter women with no hijab frequently, you know God will punish them but you don't do anything like telling her she should wear it ? If you have any empathy you should do that everytime !

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Mo, it sounds like you are saying that it's ok for men to rape their wives because otherwise the wives are bad luck and you think that wiferape shows them respect? What the fuck? Also, now you say that the husband gets to be in charge of her emotions too during sex. He takes care of both his own and hers. I guess she is too weak and stupid and emotional to take charge of her own brain. Pathetic that you believe shit like this.

ok am afraid that my language is not that clear so before answering i just want to ask other members do anyone are getting that am saying what scented claims??????

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She misread your answer I guess.

[mo3taz3nbar]

2:223 (from Abdullah Yussuf Ali) Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah.
If your explanation was the original intent of this verse, why did they not write explicitly about feelings and emotions, or at least something like "be good to her during the act" ? The message is not clear at all, it seems like a general advice to do some good acts for both of them without specifying which acts. Moreover, it says "BEFOREHAND" (and all translations agree that it is something done BEFORE the act) so it can't be to care about her during the act.

dont expect that god will tell in the Quran the words in such details regarding sex it is said in a beautiful way and simple that makes you get it without getting in details. and also you should think why god said after these words and fear Allah? and yes its something before act its like dont start having sex with your wife when she is not in the same position as you are because this is humilating you are not having sex with a couch lol. you may think thats wierd to be mentioned in the Quran but this is the general idea when having sex with your wife as if you are not acting with respect and you just deal with her during sex as an object believe me that will be reflected in your relationship regarding respect to each other(do some searches on statistics regarding this issue) one of my married friends was having problems with his wife a lot after marriage so i asked him was this problems there before marriage he said no so i just told him this verse and you cant imagine how his marriage life changed

Therefore it ain't no misconception that Islam sometimes recommends stoning, and it applies to fucking in public.................................................this is fucked up. period.

Oh I can totally rely to your argument! Even myself I sometimes kill people for fun, but don't worry, I DO IT EXTREMELY RARELY and I make sure to let noone see me![/sarcasm] The rarity doesn't make it OK and is no excuse at all ! I cannot respect a text which demands to kill someone for having sex in public. If it's in the Qur'an (and I'd like to have the quote) then no matter how great the rest of the book might be (and it certainly is not!), it is still sick !
Same thing for the 80 lashes (24:2)

you find this agressive see how many babies are killed(in abortion) because they have no father or because the woman is not ready to be a mother thats ok with you to kill babies who have done nothing wrong or to put an agressive punishment for having sex in public so people stop doing that? thats only one thing there is a lot of other things that is the happening because of sex before marriage
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

If there is a punishment directly afterward it's not freedom.

so you are not following the law of your country?what do you mean by directly afterward?

So you're saying that you encounter women with no hijab frequently, you know God will punish them but you don't do anything like telling her she should wear it ? If you have any empathy you should do that everytime !

in some situations you cant just tell her as this will just make her annoyed and will not wear the hijab also she will just hate me for embarressing her if she is someone i know very well i talk to her in a way that she dont feel uncomfartable and if i dont know her i just lower my gaze in an obvious way and they sometimes get it