The hijab (etc) is immodest

[arewethereyet]

Final debate between Ego-Death and Belaqua:
 
Both views are interesting and there are ideas I am agreeing on on both sides. So the debate itself is nice.
 
My addition to this debate could be this:
- There is bigotry in every religion and that’s why people hate religion in the first place.
 
Yet there is a difference between the original message of Jesus who accepted to peacefully die on the cross for what he believed in and the middle-age catholic church who sent hordes of murderers to kill and plunder other people “In the name of God”.
 
It’s simply too easy to manipulate people with religion. It is also too easy to put all the blame on religion. Let’s think about the modern catholic church who murdered native children in Canada until the 1990’s in order to assimilate them. Or on the same church who consciously hid pedophile priests from justice in order to maintain it’s own image in front of the general public.
 
So these are atrocities that exist in every religion.
 
My theory is that the Hijab is not such an atrocity. It’s a misinterpretation. That’s also a different thing.  But one has to be aware of the fact that most of the Islamic world is ruled by monarchs, terrorists (I am talking only about Afghanistan), dictators, populist-“islamist” parties whose interests lie in the constant misinterpretation of the religion itself because it’s in their interest to have an ignorant, bestial, rustic, ignorant, uneducated, dogmatic, unchallenging and unquestioning population who will basically applaud what ever comes out of their mouth.  
 
The Movie by Sacha Baron Cohen is not a simple farce (I know it’s not a farce living where I live).
 
I don’t know If one can say this to agnostic or atheist person while trying to remain politically correct but if you look at the core of many religions, you can find out that most of the ugliness come from human error, not from the book or the message itself. At least that’s my point of view.

Ego Death hasn't been here in two and a half years.

[R00tKiT]

By official, I mean the view of many people who believe in religious tolerance and also believe on the principle of laicity (at least those that I know of).

Laicity is in stark opposition to Islam. I think you already know that.

What would you thing about me if I had a 7 or 10 year old daughter and I told her that pious women must be dressed like this, or else, she is a slut (whatever that means in our times). Does that make me a narrow minded person or not? It’s as simple as that.

A young girl, like any child, is greatly influenced by whatever her parents say, so if they encourage her to wear suggestive clothing, chances are she'll continue to do so later in life, not complicated to understand.

In today’s world, I will have to ask you for a quotation from your Salih Abi, 

From Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘If one of you proposes marriage to a woman, if he can look at her to see that which will encourage him to go ahead and marry her, then let him do so.’ I proposed marriage to a young woman, and I used to hide where I could see her, until I saw that which encouraged me to go ahead and marry her, so I did so.’”  (Saheeh Abi Dawood, no. 1832, 1834)

[Leonardo17]

(troll)

You call me a troll or Mister Agenda? why?

No. Actually I don’t know J (Sorry if you are not a troll)
 
Yet: I don’t believe in any religion to be evil in itself. But I do believe all those clerics etc. in Iran to be truly evil people with distorted minds. I am against the involvement of religion in any aspect of public life. Than religion has no chance of becoming evil because it is than confined to the private life of the individual and becomes a matter between the believer and God himself. How could this be evil? If this is evil, is Astrology or parapsychology also evil?
- No, It’s an issue that concerns no one but the person who is the holder of this belief.

[Leonardo17]

By official, I mean the view of many people who believe in religious tolerance and also believe on the principle of laicity (at least those that I know of).

Laicity is in stark opposition to Islam. I think you already know that.

What would you thing about me if I had a 7 or 10 year old daughter and I told her that pious women must be dressed like this, or else, she is a slut (whatever that means in our times). Does that make me a narrow minded person or not? It’s as simple as that.

A young girl, like any child, is greatly influenced by whatever her parents say, so if they encourage her to wear suggestive clothing, chances are she'll continue to do so later in life, not complicated to understand.

In today’s world, I will have to ask you for a quotation from your Salih Abi, 

From Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘If one of you proposes marriage to a woman, if he can look at her to see that which will encourage him to go ahead and marry her, then let him do so.’ I proposed marriage to a young woman, and I used to hide where I could see her, until I saw that which encouraged me to go ahead and marry her, so I did so.’”  (Saheeh Abi Dawood, no. 1832, 1834)

1) That is not correct.

2) There is no suggestive clothing anymore. Any way of dressing that remains "normal" has to be enough. Otherwise does a boy child or a grown up man need to be taught not to wear suggestive clothing for fear of inducing sin in the mind of his female viewer or in the mind of people who are attracted to the same sex?

- I think these ideas should be left where they belong: In the middle ages

3) Well. I mostly focus on the book itself. What you are referring to here is “hadith” that is, the teachings that were supposedly given by the prophet while he was alive. But the prophet had forbidden that any of his non-formal teachings other than the Kuran would be written down. So it remained as an oral tradition for 200 years after the death of the prophet.
Today there are even Hadith’s (words that are attributed to the Prophet Muhammad) that are being used by people who are willing to sell a certain type of product in their stores.
Academically speaking, it is a monumental task to determine which hadith is true and which hadith has been invented by later scholars. So I stood out of it. I mostly focused on the Kuran itself (like the prophet himself wanted future generations to do) and reached some conclusions from that perspective.
So my view is less traditional, more rational and more rationally debatable if you like. I don’t have the necessary knowledge to debate the hadith and even if I had, the hadith has been an oral / unwritten tradition for 200 years, unlike the Kuran that remained completely unchanged for more than 1400 years.

[Eclectic]

You call me a troll or Mister Agenda? why?

No. Actually I don’t know J (Sorry if you are not a troll)
 
Yet: I don’t believe in any religion to be evil in itself. But I do believe all those clerics etc. in Iran to be truly evil people with distorted minds. I am against the involvement of religion in any aspect of public life. Than religion has no chance of becoming evil because it is than confined to the private life of the individual and becomes a matter between the believer and God himself. How could this be evil? If this is evil, is Astrology or parapsychology also evil?
- No, It’s an issue that concerns no one but the person who is the holder of this belief.

Religion in Iran is not a personal matter.
In Iran, the religious government wants to assign duties to everyone.
It has created a class of thugs who disguise themselves as women, interfere in people's sexual relations, and interfere in the economy.
The theocracy has created a big mafia, which is just like the Italian mafia and the American mafia.
Everyone is religious, but heroin trade, sex trade, economic blackmail and any kind of criminal activity are all done by religious people with the support of the Iranian police and the IRGC.
They themselves say that they are supported by the CIA.

[Leonardo17]

No. Actually I don’t know J (Sorry if you are not a troll)
 
Yet: I don’t believe in any religion to be evil in itself. But I do believe all those clerics etc. in Iran to be truly evil people with distorted minds. I am against the involvement of religion in any aspect of public life. Than religion has no chance of becoming evil because it is than confined to the private life of the individual and becomes a matter between the believer and God himself. How could this be evil? If this is evil, is Astrology or parapsychology also evil?
- No, It’s an issue that concerns no one but the person who is the holder of this belief.

Religion in Iran is not a personal matter.
In Iran, the religious government wants to assign duties to everyone.
It has created a class of thugs who disguise themselves as women, interfere in people's sexual relations, and interfere in the economy.
The theocracy has created a big mafia, which is just like the Italian mafia and the American mafia.
Everyone is religious, but heroin trade, sex trade, economic blackmail and any kind of criminal activity are all done by religious people with the support of the Iranian police and the IRGC.
They themselves say that they are supported by the CIA.

Well, the exact same thing has been exported to my country in the last 20-25 years unfortunately. And we have such a great history. No only did we re-assert our independence after being on the losing side in WWI but also, thank to a man called Mustafa Kemal, we founded a secular republic in 1923 and we really worked hard and made a lot of sacrifices to earn our independence and freedoms.
 
Now see how these people who “understand Islam better than I do” are living monuments of democracy, tolerance and religious freedoms. See how they are loving and understanding against everyone who “by personal choice” decides to be different. Just look at those pictures:
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/anti-lgbtq-pr...56220.html
 
Note: Historically speaking, during the war that that led to our nation’s independence in 1923, political islamists first Supported the monarchic institution, than they collaborated with invading Greek and British forces. In these pictures you see them holding the Turkish flag. Historically they hate the national flag (an every national flag because they don’t believe in nations, they only believe in what they call “religious” adherence and identity). In fact they are even a shame for the Ottoman way of ruling because the sectarian movements to which they belong have always challenged the rule of Ottoman Sultans during the 18th and 19th century.

So technically speaking. They are lying even as they are holding these national flags in their hands. Because they don’t believe in nations. The only flag they should be allowed to be nearby should be the ISIL flag, The Emirate of Afghanistan flag and perhaps the Saudi-Arabian flag. Even a flag has too much symbolism in it if you try to think according to their way of seeing the world. J J

[Leonardo17]

Administrator Notice
duplicate post removed as requested

[Leonardo17]

I can't erase the repeating message above. Please do so.

[arewethereyet]

I can't erase the repeating message above. Please do so.

You're welcome.

[Eclectic]

I remember about 20 years ago, Erdogan announced that he wanted to make the hijab compulsory, and I saw on the news that millions of people took to the streets (ithink in Istanbul) and said they did not want the hijab.

But yesterday and today in Tehran, only a few thousand people came to the street to protest the murder of Mehsa (Jina) and to protest the hijab law!
The secular people of Tehran are very lazy, but the secular people of Turkey immediately come to the streets by the millions and give the message that we do not want hijab!