Question about "faith"

[The Grand Nudger]

Faith may, in the end, be capable doing anything that reason can do. That can't make faith equivalent to reason anymore than faith is equivalent to how we think abut chairs, or anymore than a club is equivalent to a missile on account of both leaving bloody smears in the mud.

Similarly, people being reasonable while they are being faithful won't make faith and reason equivalent anymore than launching a missile while you're clubbing someone to death makes a missile strike and a clubbing equivalent.

[Abaddon_ire]

I've repeatedly asked what faith does. No one has answered so far.

A wise man once said that the easiest person to fool is oneself, and it looks as though you are doing it.

That was Richard Feynman, an avowed atheist.

And here you are fooling yourself. Funny that.

[Sal]

Faith may, in the end, be capable doing anything that reason can do. That can't make faith equivalent to reason anymore than faith is equivalent to how we think abut chairs, or anymore than a club is equivalent to a missile on account of both leaving bloody smears in the mud.

Similarly, people being reasonable while they are being faithful won't make faith and reason equivalent anymore than launching a missile while you're clubbing someone to death makes a missile strike and a clubbing equivalent.

Exactomundo.

The way faith is talked about, it usually is talked as-if it does something we take for granted, like 'trust', 'confidence', 'conviction', even 'belief'. Insofar we're able use cognitive ability, to reason about stuff, where faith functions as a stand-in for that same cognitive ability.

[John 6IX Breezy]

Tell you what, next time you're at church, peddle your faith™ there, see if your fellow cultists think that christian faith is a chair kind of thing? You won't, because it isn't, and you know better. You're taking a doomed position because you want to argue with atheists about the reasonableness of your superstitious beliefs.

Here's a quote from one of the founders of my church; it's possibly the most widely read and distributed book within my church, first published back in 1892:

"God never asks us to believe, without giving sufficient evidence upon which to base our faith. His existence, His character, the truthfulness of His word, are all established by testimony that appeals to our reason; and this testimony is abundant. Yet God has never removed the possibility of doubt. Our faith must rest upon evidence, not demonstration. (E.G.W., Steps to Christ)

The reasonableness of faith is nothing new. Perhaps that is why I'm so good at substantiating my arguments with references--it was engrained in me by my church.

---

As far as faith being an action, a protection against emotions, and trust in a proposition, here's an example from another popular Christian book, written back in the 1600s: Pilgrims Progress.

"The lions were chained, but he saw not the chains. Then he was afraid, and thought himself to go back; for he thought nothing but death was before him. But the Porter at the lodge, whose name is Watchful, perceiving that Christian made a halt, as if he would go back, cried unto him, saying, Is thy strength so small? Fear not the lions, for they are chained, and are placed there for trial of faith where it is, and for discovery of those that have none: keep in the midst of the path, and no hurt shall come unto you" (John Bunyan).

Note that the proposer being trusted was the man named Watchful. Note that his proposition was that the lions were chained. Note that his merit comes from being the Porter at the lodge. Note that faith was enacted by walking past the lions. And note that the emotion of fear was the cause of doubt, not reason. "Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted, in spite of your changing moods” C.S. Lewis.

[Simon Moon]

Here's a quote from one of the founders of my church; it's possibly the most widely read and distributed book within my church, first published back in 1892:

"God never asks us to believe, without giving sufficient evidence upon which to base our faith. His existence, His character, the truthfulness of His word, are all established by testimony that appeals to our reason; and this testimony is abundant. Yet God has never removed the possibility of doubt. Our faith must rest upon evidence, not demonstration. (E.G.W., Steps to Christ)

The reasonableness of faith is nothing new. Perhaps that is why I'm so good at substantiating my arguments with references--it was engrained in me by my church.

OK! Now we're talking!

One of my main motivations in life, is to have a solid epistemology. I want to hold as many true beliefs, and as few false beliefs as is possible.

So, if you can provide me with sufficient evidence, based on a sound epistemology, to support your claim that a god exists, I am completely open minded to being convinced. My intellectual honesty demands it.

I am not 'angry at god', or simply 'want to sin' as my justification to call myself an atheist. I am simply not convinced that any god exists. I used to be a theist, and a sincere believer.

So, you are now claiming (or your church is) to have sufficient evidence to support your claim that a god exists.

Please provide it.

[The Grand Nudger]

I just told you that I had no interest in bickering with you over the reasonabless of your faith..and you respond by trying to bicker about the reasonableness of your faith, John.

You're taking doomed positions about your faith because you want to argue about it's reasonableness. Your pet witch doctors comments mean absolutely nothing to me, but maybe you should go and tell him that your faith in christ is a chair sort of thing.

[John 6IX Breezy]

I don't know why the christians we get here say such ridiculous things. I chalk it up to the effect of bickering with atheists.

When someone excludes relevant information that undermines their position, it is called the fallacy of exclusion. You've done as much by drawing a circle around the theists of this forum, such that they are excluded from the rest of Christianity, allowing your stereotypes to persist.

John Bunyan in the 1600s; E.G. White in the 1800s; C.S. Lewis in the 1900s; and me in the 2020; these are bits of data that when accounted for decrease the accuracy of your words and increase the accuracy of mine.

The faith/trust you place on chairs when you sit on them, is of the same kind that parted the Jordan when Israel stepped foot on it's shores. Nothing changed except for what the proposition entailed and who the proposer was.

[The Grand Nudger]

Still not interested in bickering with you over the reasonableness of your beliefs, and I've already accepted that your christian faith is a chair sort of thing. Plan on arguing back up and out now, or..?

Otherwise, that's pretty much that.

[John 6IX Breezy]

No; if we're agreed that faith is trust, that pretty much settles it.

[The Grand Nudger]

If that's the word you use for chair stuff, which is the same stuff as your christian faith stuff, yeah, sure. Whatever you say.