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November 9, 2011 at 9:36 pm (This post was last modified: November 9, 2011 at 9:36 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Please show me any point in scripture that backs up any assertion..lol.
If you would like to make your own thread to back up your own claim to being one of the elect, perhaps dealing with the "revealed will of god" and the "secret will of god", be my guest. You made the claim, now back it up. In general I call bullshit on anything that falls out of a liars mouth unless they can show me otherwise.
That being said. In this case, I absolutely do believe that you are certain of this, in the same way that you are certain that there was a flood, etc. Whatever you have to tell yourself to get through the day is your own business until you start making claims in public.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(November 9, 2011 at 9:36 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If you would like to make your own thread to back up your own claim to being one of the elect, perhaps dealing with the "revealed will of god" and the "secret will of god", be my guest. You made the claim, now back it up. In general I call bullshit on anything that falls out of a liars mouth unless they can show me otherwise.
So you can’t back up your assertion that believers are told that they cannot know they are part of the elect? Yeah I knew you were blowing smoke as usual, you are too easy.
Quote: That being said. In this case, I absolutely do believe that you are certain of this, in the same way that you are certain that there was a flood, etc. Whatever you have to tell yourself to get through the day is your own business until you start making claims in public.
Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. I am going to start keeping a score sheet so I can keep track of just how many fallacies you commit, if you believe in yourself I am sure you can break the record sport.
November 10, 2011 at 3:23 pm (This post was last modified: November 10, 2011 at 3:28 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Before we go any further, is this something you subscribe to or are you just "making a point"?
Thusfar your definition of "fallacy" appears to be calling you on your bullshit. So, Stat, how do you know you're saved? Is it your faith? Your virtue? Your merit? Your acts? Explain exactly how the doctrine of unconditional election (which explicitly states that none of these things are relevant to god's supposed grace) allows you to make such a bold claim? I think you're bucking against an unbelievably pessimistic and ridiculous concept of grace, and the thought that you are somehow saved allows you to avoid the uncomfortable business of confronting the implications of your own faith. But hey, opinions and assholes. What's yours?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(November 9, 2011 at 8:47 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:
(November 9, 2011 at 8:21 pm)Faith No More Wrote: If no one is worthy, then why save us at all?
If God didn’t save anyone then one of this attributes would go unexpressed and thusly un-glorified, He expresses His justice through those that are unsaved and His love and glory through those He saves. We see this in the contrast between Pharaoh and Moses, God builds Pharaoh up just to destroy Him and His kingdom displaying His justice and power. He then gives someone as small as Moses saving grace displaying His love and grace towards His children.
Quote: Except in this situation he allows some to earn a pardon while simultaneously denying others any chance at all. When you add to that the they are being denied this chance because of reasons beyond their control that he created(place of birth), God's idea of justice is being randomly applied.
So you are saying every criminal deserves the chance to be pardoned? I am not so sure I agree that is required in order to preserve justice. Everyone that God wants to give justice to hears the gospel and responds to it positively. So I really don’t see the distinction between someone who hears the gospel but rejects it simply because their heart was never redeemed and someone who never hears the gospel simply because they live in South America. There has never been a person who would have accepted the gospel if they had just had the opportunity to hear it. This does not stop us from doing mission work though because we believe there are sheep in other countries and God has chosen to use us as His means of getting the good news to them.
Quote: Except this does not apply because these people are being punished for something they did not choose(place of birth again).
No, they are punished for their sins, not the fact they were born in a particular place. There is not a single person on earth who does not sin in some fashion; this is what they are punished for.
Quote: Yet you believe god has given you the opportunity but he denies it to others. Something obviously has to set you apart from those who have no chance.
What sets me apart is solely in God, not in me. He chose to save me because it serves His greater purpose not because I did anything to earn it. I think one of Christianity’s greatest strengths is the fact that it is completely unique in its view of man. All other religions seem to glorify man in some way or another which is exactly what I would expect from man-made religions, but why would man create a religion that made him look like a complete wretch utterly incapable of doing anything good on his own? We even see this when Christians introduce doctrines that are not in line with scripture, they always glorify man in some way, or increase his sovereignty in some way.
Do you really not see how narcissistic your beliefs are?
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
(November 10, 2011 at 3:23 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Before we go any further, is this something you subscribe to or are you just "making a point"?
When I am making a point I am clear that I am just making a point.
Quote: Thusfar your definition of "fallacy" appears to be calling you on your bullshit. So, Stat, how do you know you're saved? Is it your faith? Your virtue? Your merit? Your acts? Explain exactly how the doctrine of unconditional election (which explicitly states that none of these things are relevant to god's supposed grace)
Where does the doctrine of UE say that? Faith is a necessary result of saving grace. You cannot exhibit genuine faith without the grace first being present. All that receive saving grace are saved. I have unshakable faith in Christ therefore I know I am saved. It’s pretty simple really, I can know I am saved but I have no way of knowing whether or not anyone else is for sure, besides the ones scripture tells me were.
(November 10, 2011 at 4:05 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Do you really not see how narcissistic your beliefs are?
How is saying that I was saved despite what I was and what I deserved in anyway narcissistic? If I stood here and told you I was saved because I was somehow better or smarter than you, that would be narcissism.
November 10, 2011 at 6:27 pm (This post was last modified: November 10, 2011 at 6:31 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
"Unconditional election": This doctrine asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism
Perhaps you'd like to become a contributing editor? Are you claiming to know the will of god in this matter, specifically with regards to yourself? You'll also need to establish that your interpretation of scripture is accurate (otherwise you have faith in false doctrine, not faith in god, a gift from someone other than god, I believe is the common idiocy asserted in the christian waters), after you've demonstrated the existence of said god, before your claims have any weight whatsoever. So have at it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(November 10, 2011 at 6:27 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Perhaps you'd like to become a contributing editor? Are you claiming to know the will of god in this matter, specifically with regards to yourself? You'll also need to establish that your interpretation of scripture is accurate (otherwise you have faith in false doctrine, not faith in god, a gift from someone other than god, I believe is the common idiocy asserted in the christian waters), after you've demonstrated the existence of said god, before your claims have any weight whatsoever. So have at it.
I see you are still incapable of any knowledge outside of Wikipedia. God’s choice is not based upon foreseen knowledge, faith, works or merit. That is absolutely correct. However, faith is a necessary result of God’s election, so if a person possesses genuine faith they can be fully assured that they themselves are part of the elect. I don’t know whether anyone other than myself possesses genuine faith, so that is why I don’t speculate on who is and who is not part of the elect besides those scripture tells me were or were not.
"Accordingly, those whom God has appointed as his sons are said to have been chosen not in themselves but in his Christ [Eph. 1:4]; for unless he could love them in him, he could not honor them with the inheritance of his Kingdom if they had not previously become partakers on him. But if we have been chosen in him, we shall not find assurance of our election in ourselves; and not even in God the Father, if we conceive him as severed from his Son. Christ, then, is the mirror wherein we must, and without self-deception may, contemplate our own election. For since it is into his body the Father has destined those to be engrafted whom he has willed from eternity to be his own, that he may hold as sons all whom he acknowledges to be among his members, we have a sufficiently clear and firm testimony that we have been inscribed in the book of life[cf. Rev. 21:27] if we are in communion with Christ. " - John Calvin
I don't know, maybe you think you know more about Calvinism than John Calvin did, I would not be surprised at all if you thought you did.
Quote:So logical axioms are deemed true or false by what you grant? You crack me up. I like how you changed it from a “correct premise” to an axiom “a premise that is assumed to be true”.
Sorry, asshole. You'll have to demonstrate that fairy tales are true before I grant them "axiomatic" status.
(November 14, 2011 at 7:27 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Sorry, asshole. You'll have to demonstrate that fairy tales are true before I grant them "axiomatic" status.
Good luck with that.
Is requiring that axioms be demonstrated to be true an axiom?
