DD_8630 Wrote:Then that is your problem: the world is not as nice and intuitive as electronics would have it.
If you are neither a scientist nor a philosopher, why do you insist on going against the entire community of scientists and philosophers? I, for one, know when to defer to their expertise.
I did speak about my ability ,as an engineer,to look at the world from a technical point of view which is not just electronics as you imply.
The problem we are debating here is unanimously recognized as a controversial one, so I do not understand in the name of whom you assume the role as a representative of "the entire community of scientists and philosophers"?
Come on. Isn't it a little bit exagerated?
DD8630 Wrote:josef rosenkranz Wrote:You can consider what I'm saying as not exactly philosophically correct.
May be that the postulation is flawed by some inexact expressions,I don't care.
To say the least. And this brings me back to my first point: you have come into this debate not knowing the correct terminology, conflating your own intuitive guesses at the terms with their actual definition. You talk of chaos, indeterminism, unpredictability, and disorder, as if they are exactly the same thing. Suffice to say, they are not
So that's why we disagree: our terminology is not the same. What you mean by 'indeterminate' is not what I (nor philosophers, nor my fellow scientists) mean by 'indeterminate'.
We really disagree about terminology but you did not disprove the essential point of my view that most of laws of nature are governed by both random and determinism each of them acting in certain limits.
Now, you looked a little haughty on quotations of terminology which I coppied from the Wikipwedia so I went seeking for help to the more "noble" Britannica.
Here is what I found:
(quote)
1) Main Entry: in·de·ter·mi·nate
Pronunciation: \ˌin-di-ˈtərm-nət, -ˈtər-mə-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English indeterminat, from Late Latin indeterminatus, from Latin in- + determinatus, past participle of determinare to determine
Date: 14th century
1 a: not definitely or precisely determined or fixed : vague b: not known in advance c: not leading to a definite end or result
2: having an infinite number of solutions <a system of indeterminate equations>
3: being one of the seven undefined mathematical expressions
4: characterized by sequential flowering from the lateral or basal buds to the central or uppermost buds ; also : characterized by growth in which the main stem continues to elongate indefinitely without being limited by a terminal inflorescence — compare 4 (unquote)
So what we see here is that "indeterminate" is a notion not forcible connected to quantum theory or to the universe but also to the ordinary technical world. The points 2 and 3 underline just what I have intuitively said that when you perform a measurement based on a law of physics,and you are for instance increasing the accuracy of the measurement you'll get to a point where you have an infinite number of results depending upon a system of indefinite equations, meaning that you have entered the indeterminate part of this law.
This will not be a problem of aproximation but a problem of practical randomness.
One cannot deny the fact that the indefinite temperature of physical objects is a subproduct of the second law of thermodynamics.
So each law where temperature is a part of it is intrinsically indetereminated.That's just a typical problem (one of many others) of weather forecasting.
The same aplies to the most basic law of Ohm as I have mentioned in a previous reply.
Another interesting definition of the Britannica is that of "Chaos":
(quote)
chaos theory
mathematics and mechanics
Main
in mechanics and mathematics, the study of apparently random or unpredictable behaviour in systems governed by deterministic laws. A more accurate term, “deterministic chaos,” suggests a paradox because it connects two notions that are familiar and commonly regarded as incompatible. The first is that of randomness or unpredictability, as in the trajectory of a molecule in a gas or in the voting choice of a particular individual from out of a population. In conventional analyses, randomness was considered more apparent than real, arising from ignorance of the many causes at work. In other words, it was commonly believed that the world is unpredictable because it is complicated. The second notion is that of deterministic motion, as that of a pendulum or a planet, which has been accepted since the time of Isaac Newton as exemplifying the success of science in rendering predictable that which is initially complex.(unquote).
Voila, the "deterministic chaos" connects two apparently incompatible notions :random and determinism.
So it is no more a terminology expressed by me on the base of an engineering technical intuition but one collected from the high Britannica.
It is true that science does not begin from encyclopaedies,but the opposite is also true that a notion published in an encyclopaedy is a common denominator for a theory sustained by group of skilled persons in this field.
I invite members of our forum to enhance the knowledge of this apparently odd notion called "deterministic chaos" with examples fom different fields as economy ,sociology,biology,health and so on.
