(July 31, 2015 at 10:13 am)lkingpinl Wrote: I never found this argument very convincing. We can explain everything there is about an internal combustion engine, but that does mean the mind and person of Henry Ford did not exist (different example of watchmaker argument).
Surely you can see how "that doesn't mean I'm not still right somehow," isn't a very compelling argument?
Quote: The fact the universe cannot explain it's own existence, to me, necessitates an explanation outside of itself.
That's an argument from ignorance: the fact that you can't yet imagine an answer, or aren't equipped to know it yet, doesn't mean that the answer doesn't exist. The only way that would be possible is if you were omniscient and still didn't know, which I don't think is likely.
More broadly though, appealing to something with even less evidence than the origin of the universe is hardly going to bring you to a cogent answer. It'll bring you to fiction.
Quote: Even Hawking's proposal that at the Big Bang in the singularity the laws of nature would necessarily be broken down shows the universe's existence needs to violate the known laws of nature or is outside the laws of nature, or if you will, "supernatural".
Seems like a cheap definitional game you're playing there. There's more to the term supernatural than just eschewing the current formulation of the laws of physics. Hell, whatever laws governed the pre-expansion universe would have arised naturally themselves, in that they arose as a part of what nature looked like at that stage of reality.
Quote: Some call it a creator (Deism), others go further and identify the Deity (monotheism), some simply espouse, "I don't know" (agnostic), and others say, "I don't know, but I know its not a creator" (agnostic atheism).
... I don't think you have much of an idea of what agnostic atheism is, if you're going to put "I know it's not a creator," in there. "There is no evidence currently available for a creator," would be a more accurate bet.
Quote:Those who espouse a creator, don't believe in a "God of the Gaps". The creator is responsible for the whole thing, the parts we don't understand and the parts we do. There are plenty of scientists in this world and throughout history who are infinitely more intelligent than you or I who make your last sentence ridiculous. But because they believe in a creator, do you write them off as an intellectual?
Those theist scientists, notably, eschewed faith in their discoveries, and not a one of them resorted to "Hey, here's a natural explanation, but god hasn't been disproven as the cause yet!" as an argument.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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