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Hiroshima 70 years ago
#56
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago
(August 8, 2015 at 10:27 am)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:how is Pearl Harbor a military target for two countries AT PEACE?

Pearl Harbor was supposed to be attacked 1/2 hour after Japan declared war according to Yamamoto's plan.  It was probably a fuck up but also may have reflected dissension within the Japanese government.  The Army controlled the government, not the Navy.

The 14-part message (Teikoku Seifu no Taibei Tsucho Oboegaki)  was not a declaration of war. It did not break off negotiations with the US. It was not an ultimatum. And it made absolutely no difference when it was delivered. I give you the following options:

 For a warning to occur based on that message the following events would have had to happen:
(Note: No parties in Washington would have any idea that there was a deadline looming. FDR could have easily have waited until Monday to make a reply. Yamamoto would have been aware of this possibility.)

Japan delivers note on time.

Hull reads note.

Hull responds to Nomura and Kurusu.

They reply, etc.

Hull talks to FDR, explains note. 

FDR correctly interprets this as a war warning.

FDR advises SecWar and SecNav to alert all forces.

SecWar and SecNav compose warning message.

Warning messages are handled through military channels, if available, to all commands.

Local commanders assimilate warning message and act properly. 



On the other hand, if the US had acceded to every demand in the 14-part message:



Japan delivers note on time.

Hull reads note.

Hull responds to Nomura and Kurusu.

They reply, etc.

Hull talks to FDR, explains note. 

FDR agrees to completely change US policy without consulting Congress.

FDR communicates this to Hull.

Hull explains things to Nomura and Kurusu.

They discuss any fuzzy details.

Nomura and Kurusu return to their embassy to contact Tokyo.

(Originally they were ordered to destroy all codes, but got permission to retain one low level code.)

Somehow they get the information to Tokyo.

Gaimudaijin receives message.

Foreign Minster interprets message correctly.

Foreign Minster goes to Prime Minister and explains message.

Prime Minister contacts SecWar and SecNav, who contact their forces to halt attack.



In both the above cases you can see that more than 1/2 hour was needed. So the timing issue is just a farce.
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Messages In This Thread
Hiroshima 70 years ago - by abaris - August 5, 2015 at 9:03 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Anomalocaris - August 5, 2015 at 9:29 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Pyrrho - August 5, 2015 at 9:54 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by vorlon13 - August 5, 2015 at 11:25 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Anomalocaris - August 6, 2015 at 12:47 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by abaris - August 6, 2015 at 5:54 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Minimalist - August 5, 2015 at 9:42 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Minimalist - August 5, 2015 at 10:00 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Pyrrho - August 5, 2015 at 10:41 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Minimalist - August 5, 2015 at 10:45 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Pyrrho - August 5, 2015 at 10:57 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Brian37 - August 6, 2015 at 1:51 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Minimalist - August 6, 2015 at 2:02 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Thumpalumpacus - August 6, 2015 at 11:44 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Wyrd of Gawd - August 8, 2015 at 1:55 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Duke Guilmon - August 8, 2015 at 12:57 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by bennyboy - August 6, 2015 at 3:48 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by abaris - August 6, 2015 at 6:23 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by bennyboy - August 7, 2015 at 7:36 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by LastPoet - August 6, 2015 at 4:50 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by ignoramus - August 6, 2015 at 6:30 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Gawdzilla - August 6, 2015 at 6:47 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by vorlon13 - August 6, 2015 at 9:58 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Anomalocaris - August 6, 2015 at 10:09 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Cato - August 6, 2015 at 10:13 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by abaris - August 6, 2015 at 10:24 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Cato - August 6, 2015 at 10:32 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by vorlon13 - August 6, 2015 at 10:45 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Cato - August 6, 2015 at 10:50 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by abaris - August 6, 2015 at 10:57 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Wyrd of Gawd - August 8, 2015 at 6:08 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by vorlon13 - August 6, 2015 at 10:53 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Minimalist - August 6, 2015 at 12:03 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Anomalocaris - August 7, 2015 at 8:35 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by vorlon13 - August 6, 2015 at 1:20 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Minimalist - August 7, 2015 at 7:48 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Gawdzilla - August 7, 2015 at 7:52 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by abaris - August 7, 2015 at 8:22 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Minimalist - August 7, 2015 at 8:22 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Wyrd of Gawd - August 8, 2015 at 2:13 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Gawdzilla - August 7, 2015 at 8:26 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by abaris - August 7, 2015 at 8:34 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Gawdzilla - August 7, 2015 at 8:37 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by abaris - August 7, 2015 at 8:44 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Gawdzilla - August 7, 2015 at 8:47 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by abaris - August 7, 2015 at 8:59 pm
RE: Hiroroshima 70 years ago - by Gawdzilla - August 7, 2015 at 9:06 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Anomalocaris - August 8, 2015 at 1:32 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Wyrd of Gawd - August 8, 2015 at 5:50 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Gawdzilla - August 8, 2015 at 6:02 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Wyrd of Gawd - August 8, 2015 at 6:12 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Gawdzilla - August 8, 2015 at 6:18 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Pyrrho - August 8, 2015 at 8:55 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Gawdzilla - August 8, 2015 at 9:19 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by abaris - August 8, 2015 at 6:10 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Wyrd of Gawd - August 8, 2015 at 6:13 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Wyrd of Gawd - August 8, 2015 at 6:31 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Minimalist - August 7, 2015 at 8:29 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Gawdzilla - August 7, 2015 at 8:36 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Shinagami - August 8, 2015 at 12:02 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Wyrd of Gawd - August 8, 2015 at 2:06 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by bennyboy - August 8, 2015 at 6:30 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Anomalocaris - August 8, 2015 at 12:32 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Minimalist - August 8, 2015 at 12:43 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Pyrrho - August 8, 2015 at 2:46 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by vorlon13 - August 8, 2015 at 9:29 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Minimalist - August 8, 2015 at 10:27 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Gawdzilla - August 8, 2015 at 10:59 am
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by bennyboy - August 8, 2015 at 6:02 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by abaris - August 8, 2015 at 12:07 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Minimalist - August 8, 2015 at 12:29 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Gawdzilla - August 8, 2015 at 12:54 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Anomalocaris - August 8, 2015 at 10:36 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Dystopia - August 8, 2015 at 1:21 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Gawdzilla - August 8, 2015 at 1:27 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Gawdzilla - August 8, 2015 at 5:34 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Wyrd of Gawd - August 8, 2015 at 6:24 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Gawdzilla - August 8, 2015 at 9:26 pm
RE: Hiroshima 70 years ago - by Minimalist - August 8, 2015 at 11:05 pm

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