(August 19, 2015 at 3:39 am)Neimenovic Wrote: ok I'm back
(August 18, 2015 at 10:23 am)lkingpinl Wrote: For me this one is logical. Because consciousness as we understand is an outworking or byproduct of an intelligent mind and the world is intelligible (can be understood and has order and laws) then the first cause must be an intelligent mind and therefore conscious. Only intelligent minds with conscious can bring forth ordered, purposeful complexity.
Nonsense. Our brains evolved by natural means, and they are complex. for the prose of this argument I accept that something triggered the beginning of the universe, but you have yet to establish its interest in life on Earth.
Complexity is emergent. And we actually lack the ability to understand many of the concepts required to explain many things in the universe.
I have an issue with the word purposeful in the last sentence. What makes you say that? How do you know there was a purpose? And computers refute your assertion, despite being built by humans.
And tell me, why is it impossible for the creation of the universe to be triggered by something that wasn't conscious, like a process, force etc?
here's where we have a disconnect. I don't believe that. We are coming from two different presuppositions that invariably rule out the other persons conclusions.
My point here is I believe the universe to be fine tuned to immense precision to support life only on this planet. I don't believe there is life anywhere else. Complexity is emergent, yes, but ordered purposeful complexity is a result of intelligence. We see this everyday. I still do not accept that computers refute my assertion. If a computer were to spring in to existence out of chemical reactions and start writing it's own complex programs, that would be something different, but the complexity that emerges from a computer requires the input of a mind.
As for why it's not possible for the creation to be a mindless, unguided process, is because this universe is intelligible and is ordered. We have testable laws of physics that the universe is restrained to. If the universe was started by a mindless unguided process, why should we trust our own intelligence? Each person is not making their own observations and laws about the universe there are objective laws in place that are empirically verifiable. That screams intelligence. An example of a mindless unguided process would be an explosion, the result is chaos. But we have order and extremely precise order at that.
We are not made happy by what we acquire but by what we appreciate.