RE: Dear Resident Theists
August 24, 2015 at 1:46 am
(This post was last modified: August 24, 2015 at 2:24 am by Ronkonkoma.)
Hey Boss, sorry I thought you called me delusional. I mistook your post for somebody else.
Let me respond to your last point first.
I think ever since the past 15 years most Astronomers agree that the matrix of space, time and matter that we call the universe had a beginning. They conclude this among others from the fact that the universe is expanding in all directions. So they are able to look back in time all the way to its common origin. Our telescopes are now so precise as to be able to look back 14 billion light years, to the moments after the Big Bang. Ever since 2003, mathematical proofs also exist for the beginning of the universe. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/427...beginning/
So what caused the Big bang? All I'm saying at this point is that whatever caused it must be immaterial and beyond space and time, since those things came to exist only at the moment of the Big Bang.
So these developments in science are a blow to the belief that only material things exist (materialism), since clearly the cause of the big bang was beyond space time and matter.
So the example of a stack of turtles is not the best example, because the stack of turtles have simply ran out. I suggest a better example, which is a stack of money. Once money runs out, we nowadays print it "out of nothing". We actually print it out of something completely immaterial called FAITH. Should money run out, faith in the value of the economy has the capacity to generate new money. Should faith in that value cease to exist, money would become just paper.
You argue that values exist only in our minds. They are physical. I guess that would imply that since we have a collective value for things, we also have a collective mind. But surely you can't believe that that collective mind is physical - like a giant mega-mind.
Or is it?
Let's take the internet as an analogy... Sure its the information super highway, but in physical terms it is nothing but hardware and the binary system of 1s and 0s.
But speaking in terms of the philosophy of the mind, lets ask Dr. Viktor Frankl, founder of the Third Vianese School of Psychotherapy after Freud and Adler. After all, he wrote the book titled, "the Unconscious God", and "The unheard Cry for Meaning"
Does information, ideas and values really exist, or are those things just a product of our mind? Does our mind generate values, or does it recognize values already existing?
According to Frankl, values are immaterial. Our unconscious "organ of purpose" constantly weighs these values and puts them in the context of our personal lives. The values come from outside. It is our unconscious "organ of purpose" that senses, them, registers them in the context of the gap between what I am, and what I ought to be. Values can be taught through example, experienced, or obtained through our conscience, which constantly reminds us, "do this, shun that". Values can be converted into reality through our actions. For example, lets say I value my children so I read to them every night, and as soon as I close the book, that value becomes an irreversible happening in the past. It happened, and the fact that I may die will not erase the fact that it happened, whether there is anybody around to realize it or not. In that regard, it is not material, but does exist, and my children sense it. It would have been true because it happened. Should the whole universe stop existing, it is true that it happened and it seems to me that truth itself is above space and time.
Another point, I said we are good at sensing intelligence, but the intelligence we sense through studying the universe in just one of its aspects that is crucial for life, is at an order of a billion trillions of magnitude above our own capacity of calculation, despite our best efforts with top super-computers and money invested on it. Therefore it cannot possibly originate from our minds.
More on this topic, it would be interesting to google the early Greek philosophers' notion of the "soul". In fact the greeks were the first to introduce the term "soul". They noticed that mathematical laws were immaterial, but had a great impact on mater. So they reasoned that immaterial things do exist, just like material things exists. These people formed and important basis of western thought.
Let me respond to your last point first.
I think ever since the past 15 years most Astronomers agree that the matrix of space, time and matter that we call the universe had a beginning. They conclude this among others from the fact that the universe is expanding in all directions. So they are able to look back in time all the way to its common origin. Our telescopes are now so precise as to be able to look back 14 billion light years, to the moments after the Big Bang. Ever since 2003, mathematical proofs also exist for the beginning of the universe. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/427...beginning/
So what caused the Big bang? All I'm saying at this point is that whatever caused it must be immaterial and beyond space and time, since those things came to exist only at the moment of the Big Bang.
So these developments in science are a blow to the belief that only material things exist (materialism), since clearly the cause of the big bang was beyond space time and matter.
So the example of a stack of turtles is not the best example, because the stack of turtles have simply ran out. I suggest a better example, which is a stack of money. Once money runs out, we nowadays print it "out of nothing". We actually print it out of something completely immaterial called FAITH. Should money run out, faith in the value of the economy has the capacity to generate new money. Should faith in that value cease to exist, money would become just paper.
You argue that values exist only in our minds. They are physical. I guess that would imply that since we have a collective value for things, we also have a collective mind. But surely you can't believe that that collective mind is physical - like a giant mega-mind.
Or is it?
Let's take the internet as an analogy... Sure its the information super highway, but in physical terms it is nothing but hardware and the binary system of 1s and 0s.
But speaking in terms of the philosophy of the mind, lets ask Dr. Viktor Frankl, founder of the Third Vianese School of Psychotherapy after Freud and Adler. After all, he wrote the book titled, "the Unconscious God", and "The unheard Cry for Meaning"
Does information, ideas and values really exist, or are those things just a product of our mind? Does our mind generate values, or does it recognize values already existing?
According to Frankl, values are immaterial. Our unconscious "organ of purpose" constantly weighs these values and puts them in the context of our personal lives. The values come from outside. It is our unconscious "organ of purpose" that senses, them, registers them in the context of the gap between what I am, and what I ought to be. Values can be taught through example, experienced, or obtained through our conscience, which constantly reminds us, "do this, shun that". Values can be converted into reality through our actions. For example, lets say I value my children so I read to them every night, and as soon as I close the book, that value becomes an irreversible happening in the past. It happened, and the fact that I may die will not erase the fact that it happened, whether there is anybody around to realize it or not. In that regard, it is not material, but does exist, and my children sense it. It would have been true because it happened. Should the whole universe stop existing, it is true that it happened and it seems to me that truth itself is above space and time.
Another point, I said we are good at sensing intelligence, but the intelligence we sense through studying the universe in just one of its aspects that is crucial for life, is at an order of a billion trillions of magnitude above our own capacity of calculation, despite our best efforts with top super-computers and money invested on it. Therefore it cannot possibly originate from our minds.
More on this topic, it would be interesting to google the early Greek philosophers' notion of the "soul". In fact the greeks were the first to introduce the term "soul". They noticed that mathematical laws were immaterial, but had a great impact on mater. So they reasoned that immaterial things do exist, just like material things exists. These people formed and important basis of western thought.
