(October 19, 2015 at 12:53 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:(October 19, 2015 at 12:06 am)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: No. My issue is that vicarious redemption and scapegoating (whether voluntary or not) are evil and unjust...
Why? I would be particularly curious of your answer, if you hold to a subjective view of evil (morality) and justice, which seems to be prevalent here.
I would note also, that this can be a complex subject, if you want to delve into it. There are different views on atonement and a number of passages to be taken into consideration. They are also not all mutually exclusive. For instance I don't believe that my Greek Orthodox friends are incorrect in promoting Christus Victor theory of atonement, but I don't think it removes the scriptures which talk about penal substitution either.
Just some things to keep in mind.... if you are thinking about this.
Jesus is the one who judges.
As God, Jesus is also the one offended against.
Jesus had to become man, and fulfill the requirements for High Priest, in order to stand for us and offer payment.
Also my personal belief (although I have not vetted with others yet or seen commentary in this way) is that this is why Christ also needs to be our Lord and King in order to represent us.
Baptism is presented as us dying and being raised with Christ. (Romans 6 for instance, although this can be seen throughout the new testament).
And I'm sure there are other things I am missing, but if you are interested in discussing it, I am happy to do so.
I would not be interested in discussing it further, actually. Feel free to search for any of the dozens of threads we've had on the subject. Frankly, I don't have the patience for it any more.
