And now that I have a little more time, here are the two sides of the coin:
The individual:
If you accept the responsibility of a position of leadership in your community, you are, as I've said, accepting that you are representing your organization to everyone - be it your followers or the public at large. It is your responsibility to have a clear understanding of what your organization's goals and priorities are. You should have thorough knowledge of any laws or rules, spoken or unspoken. You should be well-versed in the image your organization wishes to project. If you see another 'representative' of your organization acting in a way that is detrimental to those goals, priorities, or image, it is beneficial to you and your organization at large if you take action of some sort instead of ignoring it. You should also know that in a position of leadership, you become partially responsible for the safety and well-being of your followers. While you cannot control all, or even any, of their actions, you can guide them and also actively work towards their safety and well-being. This is the burden we face as leaders of any sort. You might not like it, but it is the way of things. We become disillusioned with our leaders when they forget this duty and reveal themselves as all too human through irresponsible actions. You see, it is true that one bad apple spoils the bunch, but only if you leave it in the barrel.
The organization:
Every organization has a head of some sort, be it made up of one or many, clear or unclear. For the purposes of this argument, the Catholic church has clear hierarchy. The pope sets the tone from his high seat on down. As an organization, you should have all of those goals and priorities defined in order for your 'officers' to follow. If your stance is that pedophilia and abuse is unacceptable, then that should be made clear, and clear punishment enacted. There is no reason to worry about your reputation being besmirched because of one or two 'bad apples' if you are open about getting rid of them, especially if the other priests have been circumspect, therefore no reason to cover it up, which only implies shame.
The Church is not the government. There are no secrets it needs to hold to keep its followers "safe", as the government might concerning intel or technology. We hate the secrets the government keeps, but they can be successfully argued as necessary. Please let me know what 'secrets' the church might have that deserve the same treatment. There is no reason whatsoever for anything to be "covered up" unless it is in fact shameful in some way.
You once argued a hypothetical point where, in the case of a family with an abuse victim and a priest, it was decided to keep it quiet out of respect. The priest was supposed to get 'help'. It might be all well and good for the family to be kept out of the media light - no victim needs to suffer more exposure. But we make pedophiles register for a reason - unless new definitive evidence has surfaced that I haven't read about (and I'm no medical doctor, so just point me in the right way if I'm wrong), no 'cure' has been found for pedophiles...and abusers may control themselves but I've never heard someone say they were "cured" either. I understand this is my opinion here now, and little to do with fact, but it seems to me that once you are caught doing something illegal to a minor you have lost the right for privacy. Too much statistical data still says that offenders will continue to do so if given the opportunity, and putting these men in the public eye allows communities to police themselves. I suggest you take a look at the FBI's sex offender statistics, as well as those like Family Watchdog. I find the church's actions thus far to be completely reprehensible on this issue, and the fact that they allowed it to fester unfortunately produced the "bad apple" effect you continue to argue against.
You can cry all you want that not all Catholics are evil. No, they're not. Probably not all priests are either. I would just call them deluded. Those who knew about the abuses and covered them up? They are disgusting.
And I hate to keep harping on this one issue. I have problems in many areas with Catholicism's teachings. Condom condemnation is a huge one. You will have no parishioners if they all die of disease.
I would love to say that other than being quite deluded, the Catholic church is okay for a sect of Christianity. They seem to be willing to embrace some science. I even get the ritualism involved - Catholics seem to be able to relate to Jews quite well because of this. But for any advance they make, there seems to be another point where they digress, dangerously.
I will leave the philosophy arguments you were trying to make to DvF and Ryft - they are obviously better equipped than I to discuss whether or not the worldview and philosophies promoted by the church are valid and sound. But I cannot and will not agree that your church is not responsible for the deaths of thousands, if not millions, through superstition, willful ignorance, irresponsible guidance and protection of power. Your church discourages sex outside of the marriage bed, as far back as its creation from what I can tell, but once owned brothels because they were so lucrative. One of the commandments is "thou shalt not kill," but too many have been slaughtered in the name of YOUR god, your trinity. You say conversion wasn't supposed to be forced? Tell that to entire nations of Ameri-Indians whose treasures and books were burned in order to force them to accept Christianity.
The actions of a few, you argue? These men were not islands. They had superiors. They wrote to them and their colleagues of their exploits. And too often, no one lifted a finger to stop the atrocities.
You can argue all you want that the crimes made were for secular reasons, but they were done 99.9% of the time under the guise of god and religion, and thus can you blame us for having no trust?
The individual:
If you accept the responsibility of a position of leadership in your community, you are, as I've said, accepting that you are representing your organization to everyone - be it your followers or the public at large. It is your responsibility to have a clear understanding of what your organization's goals and priorities are. You should have thorough knowledge of any laws or rules, spoken or unspoken. You should be well-versed in the image your organization wishes to project. If you see another 'representative' of your organization acting in a way that is detrimental to those goals, priorities, or image, it is beneficial to you and your organization at large if you take action of some sort instead of ignoring it. You should also know that in a position of leadership, you become partially responsible for the safety and well-being of your followers. While you cannot control all, or even any, of their actions, you can guide them and also actively work towards their safety and well-being. This is the burden we face as leaders of any sort. You might not like it, but it is the way of things. We become disillusioned with our leaders when they forget this duty and reveal themselves as all too human through irresponsible actions. You see, it is true that one bad apple spoils the bunch, but only if you leave it in the barrel.
The organization:
Every organization has a head of some sort, be it made up of one or many, clear or unclear. For the purposes of this argument, the Catholic church has clear hierarchy. The pope sets the tone from his high seat on down. As an organization, you should have all of those goals and priorities defined in order for your 'officers' to follow. If your stance is that pedophilia and abuse is unacceptable, then that should be made clear, and clear punishment enacted. There is no reason to worry about your reputation being besmirched because of one or two 'bad apples' if you are open about getting rid of them, especially if the other priests have been circumspect, therefore no reason to cover it up, which only implies shame.
The Church is not the government. There are no secrets it needs to hold to keep its followers "safe", as the government might concerning intel or technology. We hate the secrets the government keeps, but they can be successfully argued as necessary. Please let me know what 'secrets' the church might have that deserve the same treatment. There is no reason whatsoever for anything to be "covered up" unless it is in fact shameful in some way.
You once argued a hypothetical point where, in the case of a family with an abuse victim and a priest, it was decided to keep it quiet out of respect. The priest was supposed to get 'help'. It might be all well and good for the family to be kept out of the media light - no victim needs to suffer more exposure. But we make pedophiles register for a reason - unless new definitive evidence has surfaced that I haven't read about (and I'm no medical doctor, so just point me in the right way if I'm wrong), no 'cure' has been found for pedophiles...and abusers may control themselves but I've never heard someone say they were "cured" either. I understand this is my opinion here now, and little to do with fact, but it seems to me that once you are caught doing something illegal to a minor you have lost the right for privacy. Too much statistical data still says that offenders will continue to do so if given the opportunity, and putting these men in the public eye allows communities to police themselves. I suggest you take a look at the FBI's sex offender statistics, as well as those like Family Watchdog. I find the church's actions thus far to be completely reprehensible on this issue, and the fact that they allowed it to fester unfortunately produced the "bad apple" effect you continue to argue against.
You can cry all you want that not all Catholics are evil. No, they're not. Probably not all priests are either. I would just call them deluded. Those who knew about the abuses and covered them up? They are disgusting.
And I hate to keep harping on this one issue. I have problems in many areas with Catholicism's teachings. Condom condemnation is a huge one. You will have no parishioners if they all die of disease.
I would love to say that other than being quite deluded, the Catholic church is okay for a sect of Christianity. They seem to be willing to embrace some science. I even get the ritualism involved - Catholics seem to be able to relate to Jews quite well because of this. But for any advance they make, there seems to be another point where they digress, dangerously.
I will leave the philosophy arguments you were trying to make to DvF and Ryft - they are obviously better equipped than I to discuss whether or not the worldview and philosophies promoted by the church are valid and sound. But I cannot and will not agree that your church is not responsible for the deaths of thousands, if not millions, through superstition, willful ignorance, irresponsible guidance and protection of power. Your church discourages sex outside of the marriage bed, as far back as its creation from what I can tell, but once owned brothels because they were so lucrative. One of the commandments is "thou shalt not kill," but too many have been slaughtered in the name of YOUR god, your trinity. You say conversion wasn't supposed to be forced? Tell that to entire nations of Ameri-Indians whose treasures and books were burned in order to force them to accept Christianity.
The actions of a few, you argue? These men were not islands. They had superiors. They wrote to them and their colleagues of their exploits. And too often, no one lifted a finger to stop the atrocities.
You can argue all you want that the crimes made were for secular reasons, but they were done 99.9% of the time under the guise of god and religion, and thus can you blame us for having no trust?
![[Image: Untitled2_zpswaosccbr.png]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i1140.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn569%2Fthesummerqueen%2FUntitled2_zpswaosccbr.png)
