(December 22, 2015 at 2:23 pm)athrock Wrote: the atheist (and this means you this time) posits that objective moral values do not exist (ie, that all moral values are subjective); it's your burden to prove that all moral values are purely subjective.
Okay.
Morals and ethics are not chosen by facts. They are chosen by human feeling. You refuse to answer my question of why murder is wrong. So let me supply the answer for you.
Murder is wrong because we, as humans, value our lives. We do not want other people taking our lives. And because we have these emotions called "empathy", we understand that if we don't want our lives taken, then other people don't want theirs taken. And thus to form a society in which I am not at risk of being killed by people and my neighbor and my friends and family are not at risk of being killed by people, we come to an agreement to outlaw murder. That is, to make a rule that we shouldn't kill each other.
Notice how the above reason for the immorality of murder is based ENTIRELY on the feelings of humans. Even if every human agrees, it is still a conclusion reached through emotion and pure human bias. "Human life has value." Not objectively it doesn't! The universe doesn't care if you live or die. We say life is sacred because we are alive. Of course the living would feel their condition to be sacred. But that bias doesn't make it objectively true.
You're failing to make a decent argument because, after 21 pages, you STILL don't see the difference between objective and subjective. Objective is not that which is universally agreed upon. A long time ago, basically everyone agreed that natural disasters were the acts of Gods. Popular opinion is irrelevant when it comes to objectivity. Popular opinion might be right about an objective truth (i.e. all of America agreeing that evolution happened), but it is not the popular opinion which makes it factual; it is the facts that support it. With objectivity, it is the facts - and only the facts - that have a say. With subjectivity, it is opinion, feeling, and bias that decide.
And it is opinion, feeling, and bias that decide murder, rape, and child abuse are wrong. Humans are upset with the idea of people being killed, raped, and abused, and thus it is outlawed. NOT because nature has a law that says so. NOT because science or mathematics says so. But because we say so, because we FEEL so.
Everything that is morally wrong is morally wrong because humans feel it to be wrong. If you want to say an all powerful being that determines everything makes it wrong, and not human feeling, then fine. But in order to do that, you have to show that your being exists in the first place.
So if we're being technical here, one must prove God's existence in order to prove that OMVs exist, and not the other way around, as your premise asserts.