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Why logical arguments for Messengers don't work.
#25
RE: Why logical arguments for Messengers don't work.
(December 29, 2015 at 12:39 am)MysticKnight Wrote: No you misunderstood the argument.

I hate when that happens. I find it difficult to correctly interpret the nomenclature of your Islamic tradition – probably just as much as my neo-Scholastic terms may seem alien to you. I will translate your demonstration into familiar Western forms as best as I can and let you decide if I have been successful.

Given 1: God exists.

Given 2: God wills to guide Man.

Here I leaving aside for the moment the question of toward what God guides him. Also, I do not see how God “having good reason to do so” contributes to the demonstration.

Given 3: That which God wills must necessarily come to pass.

Premise 1: In order to come to pass, God must provide some means by which it may come to pass and must satisfy at least two conditions: the Divine origin of the means must be recognizable and the means must serve as a sufficiently effective guide.

Premise 4: People consider various prophets, oracles, visions, texts, signs and wonders to be Divine guides.

This seems to be the starting point for your analysis of which apparent Divine guides are if fact real Divine guides. As follows:
Prophets and oracles (Messengers) must somehow prove their authority, i.e. that their pronouncements come from a Divine source and are not their own fantasies or fabrications.

Your position seems to be that Messengers do so only by performing miracles. In the Christian tradition, miracles by themselves are not meant to compel belief, but rather seem incidental to the message of the prophet. In other words, they confirm truths already revealed. Miracles can also deceive (Matt 7:15-16 – “And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many, for there shall arise false ‘Christs’ and false prophets performing great signs and wonders; insomuch that if it were possible, the would deceive the very elect.”)

For this reason, Jesus advised his followers to first evaluate if the apparent prophets and their disciples displayed good moral character. (Matt 7:22-23 – Many will say to me in that day, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy Name and cast out devils and performed many wonderful works. And then I will say to them ‘depart from me, you who work iniguity.”

Secondly, the doctrines taught by the apparent prophets must be consistent with previous revelations. (Galatians 1:8 – …there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!…)

From my perspective, the claims made by Christians and Jews are based on a relationship between an infinite transcendent and its finite and limited creation. We argue with God (Genesis 18:16-33 in which Abraham pleads for the saving of Sodom). We struggle to understand with His teachings (Genesis 32:22-31 in which Jacob wrestles with the Angel of God). We strive to learn His ways (Philippians 2:12 – “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” Because of Man’s corruption, people must be constantly strive for His Grace (Matt. 7:7 “Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you will find…”) to be invigorated with the Holy Spirit directly, in each generation and every individual. There is no single source of guidance, but rather a multitude in order to reach each person in the manner best suited to them, right here, right now. For some that will be the glory and order of Nature. Others will come to faith on the knee of a respected teacher. For others, a deep reading of Holy Scripture will provide them the answers they need. Or intellectual demonstrations for those so inclined. In Christianity, each of these means work together to reveal Him to Mankind.

I think you believe that to achieve His Will, God would have to provide a single indisputable and immutable guide. Since you consider the Koran to be dictated (and thus immutable), it serves as a such a guide from the time of its authorship, today, and into the future. Personally, that kind of guidance seems not only very culturally and historically specific, it also seems similar to the stance of atheists who, declining to ask or seek out God, expect revelation to come in a gift box, wrapped up in a bow.
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Messages In This Thread
RE: Why logical arguments for Messengers don't work. - by Neo-Scholastic - December 29, 2015 at 12:28 pm
RE: Why logical arguments for Messengers don't work. - by Heat - December 29, 2015 at 12:44 am

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