RE: Evidence God Exists
January 29, 2011 at 3:00 pm
(This post was last modified: January 29, 2011 at 4:37 pm by OnlyNatural.)
(January 27, 2011 at 3:24 pm)Watson Wrote: Ever heard the old phrase 'the more I see the less I know'? The more about the universe we uncover, the more questions we will have.
I agree, everything we discover leads to more questions, which can eventually lead us to new discoveries. We should never stop asking questions.
(January 27, 2011 at 3:24 pm)Watson Wrote: Only by acknowledging the objective world around us as truly objective, and recognizing our place within it, do we draw closer to God and the way in which he works. We see his creation and we understand what part of it that we are.
Can't we just recognize that there is an incredible objective world out there, and we are a natural part of it? That's pretty exciting enough by itself, I think. I feel privileged to have been born on this planet, and to be a part of the enormous extended family of life on Earth.
(January 27, 2011 at 3:24 pm)Watson Wrote: maybe, back then, life was just plain simple enough to behold these things without too much else getting in the way. We'll never really know, I suppose.
Perhaps people back then simply had a clearer view of the mystical aspects of life, and their impact on the world, than we do now bogged as we are with such complicated lives.
Interesting idea. This makes me think of how we often feel so much more 'at one' with the universe when we're out in the wilderness instead of in the big city. Life has definitely gotten more complicated and fast-paced, and we rarely have time to just experience that sense of peace and connectedness with the world. Perhaps in the past, our sense of connection with nature was more salient.
But re-cultivating reverence for nature in today's world is more like the ideas of Naturalistic Pantheism, however, and does not require belief in God.
(January 27, 2011 at 3:24 pm)Watson Wrote:Quote:However, I realize that humans have long had a need to find meaning and purpose and feel connected to something beyond the natural world. A yearning for the spiritual, I guess you could say.Why do we have that yearning, do you think?
That's a tough question, but something I'd love to investigate. I think it can probably be traced back to the evolution of conscious self-awareness, and eventually the understanding of our own mortality. Once we could contemplate our selves and our finite lifespans, I think more and more we started asking questions like 'Who am I? Why am I here? What is my relation to the world around me? What happens when I die? Is there something else beyond my limited experience?' We humans always want answers and reasons for things, and we never stopped asking the big questions
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(January 27, 2011 at 3:24 pm)Watson Wrote: *snickers* 'Great Spirit...hehe...it's a reference...without you meaning it to be...hehe...
What unintended reference did I make, pray tell?
(January 27, 2011 at 3:24 pm)Watson Wrote: I've not heard many religious people claim to 'know' the mind of God before. Please, if you can cite specific instances, that would be grand.
Perhaps religious leaders or prophets would be more likely to make this claim, especially if they're on the fanatical side, or are attempting to exert control over their followers. I can't cite anyone specifically though.
(January 27, 2011 at 3:24 pm)Watson Wrote: There is a difference between comparing something to something else, and saying that something is something else; i.e.- Lightning is God's voice is a comparison rather than an outright literal statement.
Well, people can come up with metaphors to make sense of the idea of God, but it doesn’t really explain anything about him in the end, or provide proof of his existence.
(January 27, 2011 at 3:24 pm)Watson Wrote:Quote:Does it need to have a reason? And if it does, why must the reason involve an intelligent supernatural being?I don't know. Does it need to have a reason? Ask yourself as much and think about what it is to have a reason in the first place.
Effects have causes. Objects made by humans have purposes. I get that. Birds' wings also have a purpose, to fly, which makes survival more likely, but they weren't designed that way, they evolved that way. There's a difference between something designed for a purpose (like a telephone) and something that has evolved and is now being used for a certain purpose.
When it comes to the idea of intentional purpose, that’s something humans came up with; we assume a human-like mind in the sky also has a purpose or meaning for things, because when we design something, we have a purpose in mind.
Do you consider God to be the ‘first cause?’
(January 27, 2011 at 3:24 pm)Watson Wrote: There is no such thing as coincidence.Do you believe there truly is no meaning to life?
Of course coincidence exists. There is only coincidence. If two things happen together, one person may interpret the coincidence as meaningful, and another may not even notice.
I don’t believe in objective meaning. A ‘meaningful life’ will look different depending on the person whose life it is.
(January 27, 2011 at 3:24 pm)Watson Wrote: A friend of mine once summed it up nicely for me when he said 'When you have a goal, the universe conspires to help you achieve it.' And I truly believe that.
Again, assuming that the universe has a mind that cares about you and your personal goals. Maybe it’s comforting to think that. But what happens when the universe doesn’t ‘conspire to help you achieve’ your goals? Do you just say ‘Oh well, God’s will be done,’ and forget about it?
(January 27, 2011 at 3:24 pm)Watson Wrote: Perhaps you should take a second look at those experiences and examine their place in the larger scheme of things. How did they impact you, as well as those around you? To what end did you achieve your goals? Did you get the result you planned for, or did you get something else? And if you did get something else...why?
I’ve definitely looked at the bigger picture, and the consequences of my actions and experiences on other people. Sometimes I achieved my goals, through working hard at them. Sometimes I utterly failed. And sometimes, unexpected things just happened, and I adapted.
(January 27, 2011 at 3:24 pm)Watson Wrote: I was actually resistant to the idea of giving God credit for anything. But the more I sought answers for my questions, the less I had without some considerance of the possibility of God. Only when I fit that piece into the puzzle did the picture begin to make sense.
That’s interesting. I’ve heard from other religious people too that with God, everything made sense. Personally, it’s only when I took God out of the picture that everything started to make sense. I guess it depends on how you look at it, and what kinds of answers you’re looking for.
(January 27, 2011 at 3:24 pm)Watson Wrote: Secondly, subjective experience only has value if there is an objective, right...? Then what is this objective? How can it be tapped into? And why does religious testimony hold less weight than scientific testimony, if both are based on subjective experience en masse?
Subjective experience has value to the person who is having the experience. It doesn’t necessarily say anything about objective truth.
How to explain this in a better way… Scientific testimony is many people all pointing to something tangible in the real world, testing it thoroughly, and agreeing on its existence and significance. Religious testimony is many people all pointing to an experience in their own heads, and each assuming that it comes from God.
(January 27, 2011 at 3:24 pm)Watson Wrote: You can't 'disprove' anything entirely beyond a shadow-of-a-doubt. Therefore, all arguments are 'unfalsifiable', rendering all arguments invalid.
You can chuck a scientific theory into the trash bin for not being supported by evidence, or for being contradicted by other evidence. An unfalsifiable argument (like ‘God exists’) means that no experiment or piece of evidence could ever prove that it’s false. For a theory to be scientific, it must be capable of being falsified.
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