(January 28, 2016 at 12:17 am)Aegon Wrote:(January 27, 2016 at 11:43 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Yet the only evidence they seem to have is the self-serving garbage called, collectively, the gospels.
It's just bizarre to me. You believe in global warming, don't you? Sure, there are a select few scientists that don't think man-made global warming is a thing. But there's a scientific consensus on it existing. It's the exact same situation here. There is a consensus among historians that Jesus existed. So why are you only listening to the select few historians who disagree? I mean, purely from a logical standpoint, there must have been an historical Jesus for 1) the Jews to doubt the divinity of and 2) for an entire goddamn religion to form. How could a religion form over absolutely nothing? Every religion in history has had its driving force. But anyway..
Aside from the gospels, you have Josephus, Pliny, Tacitus (and Lucian, who never seems to get mentioned in these debates.) Here's a comment from an historian on the matter. I think he says it pretty well:
Quote:The evidence for the existence of Jesus isn't particularly flimsy: we have four biographies written within around 50 years of his death, two by ostensible eyewitnesses, we have letters written by a member of a religious group he founded written 15-20 years after his death, we have mentions in Josephus around 60 years later, and the existence of the religious group itself which claims to have been founded by him. I'm not certain there's a historical figure whom we have more or equal documentation for whose existence is ever questioned. I've certainly never encountered one, and I study folks whose lives are far less examined and documented than Jesus.
If that's an example of what you think is a "historian" - my guess is that he is just some theologian who desperately wants his bullshit to be true - then I see the problem.
1. We do not have 4 biographies of fucking jesus. We have one - written by someone euphemistically known as "mark" and three fan fics which are add-ons to the original.
2. None of them claim to have been written by "eye-witnesses."
3. You are far too willing to accept this "paul" bullshit. "Paul" among other things, never heard of Pilate, Mary, Joseph, Nazareth, no parables, no miracles....not much more than an assertion which "paul" ( or whoever) attributes to "revelation."
4. The Testimoniam Flavianum is a forgery. If it weren't then Origen, writing 75 years before Eusebius pulled it out of his ass, would be the dumbest bastard who ever lived as it would have provided evidence to back his claims. But nary a word.
5. So, the fact that a religious group exists is "evidence?" Do you accept Osiris, Odin, Zeus and Quetzlcoatl on that basis or is this special pleading reserved just for your particular god?
Put the fucking bible down and start learning what scholars have been doing for the last 2 centuries or so. Coincidentally, right around the time that the churchies lost the power to murder people who questioned their horseshit.