(February 25, 2011 at 5:13 pm)Moros Synackaon Wrote: It is patently insane to belong to an organization you don't agree with in some fashion.
The Church is not only made by its members. You can disagree with the Pope without becoming a non-Catholic. The Church has been there for 2000 years so the people in charge of it now do not represent the whole history of the Church. The Pope is only a man. And if you want to bring up the infallibility, remember that concept was used twice during the whole history of Christianity.
(February 25, 2011 at 4:52 pm)Rwandrall Wrote: False. An employee of Ford, if they remain part of the company while fully knowing it engages in criminal conduct and will continue to do so, is in effect helping Ford grow and is thus an accomplice. You are an accomplice if you a) know of the crime and it's nature and b) do the opposite of reporting it (e.g. helping it).
Exactly. You just agreed with me there. You added conditions, and "ifs". So yeah, if you are Catholic, know of a priest who molested a child and do not report it, you ARE an asshole. But most Catholics condemn those actions. Again, the Church is an institution. You can disagree with its members without disagreeing with the tenants of the organization.
Quote:"I was just following orders"-related cases have long set down that if you know something contravenes law, morality or ethics, you have still to make a conscious decision regarding your actions. The less you know, the less you can truly be held for blame, of course. However, even that has a limit with willful ignorance, where a judge can look at you and ask "How could you have /not/ known?"
I agree.
Quote:The Church has an increasing body of evidence it has routinely committed severe crimes and covered them up. Any member of that organization who is informed of those crimes must either choose to remain part of that criminal enterprise (and take the blame and flak for supporting it, for good or ill) or leave it.
And again, the Church is more than just its members.
(February 25, 2011 at 4:52 pm)Rwandrall Wrote: False once again. Being baptized is a requirement to be a member of the Church (but then again, baptizement applies to all of Christendom, so technically being baptized means you are a Christian within context of the Bible), but being baptized does not automatically make you a member of the Church any more than being raised by Democrats makes you a Democrat. Only participation in an organization is the indicator of being some form of associate or member, regardless of the organizations true scotsman list of what you need to be. Participation.
So to you, a Catholic:
-Goes to church regularly, and participates in the Church's life.
-Actually positively knows of the Church's crimes and still supports it
Yeah, you can call those people assholes. But the problem is, your definition of what a Catholic is, is wrong. I know MANY people who call themselves Catholics but do not meet those criteria. And honestly, i know ill sound accusative, but who are you to tell them they are not ?
There is another big problem: going to church does not mean supporting the Church. It's not an organization like the Democrat party where going to a rally demonstrates your support for their cause. Once again, the Church is not just an organization made of members, it is an institution that is considered to be Jesus' heritage, and as such you can go to church as a Catholic without supporting the Church itself. So your criteria of "if you go to church, you support the Church" is, in my eyes, wrong.
