FebruaryOfReason
Why doesn't Allah just stop IS from killing everyone?
Why would he?
Life is a test ground, it's not like stopping IS killing people, would end and terminate death from the universe.
robvalue
I tend to see things, as in if a verse said left then it's left, if a verse said right then it's right.
If a verse said "there shall be no compulsion in the acceptance of religion", how would I be practicing cherry-picking projection
when I say: Islam should not be forced (compulsively) on others?
Rhythm
Actually there was an Islamic state. The society during the prophet's -peace be upon him- reign was a multicultural society,
enjoying the blessing of diversity -it had Muslims, Jews, Christians & even heathens- living alongside Muslims, some even had
ranks in the army, despite their different faith:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Talib_...l-Muttalib
As you can see, when Romans & Persians were beheading each other in the Levant, the desert dwellers enjoyed some pretty
awesome state of "peace and prosperity" under the law of God, they enjoyed a human rights doctrine, represented through the
Quran.
God exists so..he never wastes the deeds of those who did good. All I want is to mend as much as I can.
MNMP
Where in the Quran does it say that it can be used as a constitution? Or lets put it another way: How much does the Quran
have to say about nation building in general? Isn't Sharia and Caliphates mainly a Hadith thing? Fiqh is commonly understood
to also from the Hadith collections, in addition to Quran and Sunnah, yes or no?
The world has changed so much since Muhammad's time. The Sharia has nothing to say about fire stations, hospitals and
police stations because they weren't around during Muhammad's time. The tax system proposed by Sharia doesn't take into
account the array of amenities that we need to make a modern, healthy, society function. The Saudi and Iran, often cited as
examples of Sharia states, survive on oil. What does the Quran say about looking after people with severe disabilities for
example? Do we do as nomads, in general, have traditionally done, and leave the ill behind because they slow the society down?
Yes. The "caliphate" as a system is indeed a Hadith thing. Though, if the Quran was to be practiced, it might -in some cases-
require a third party that is represented through the state, to carry on certain actions; as in the cases of crimes & rights.
Without that third party, a singular/multiple partied society would not be complete when the Quran is there as the way of life.
Muslims -and all humans, actually- are ordered to rule with the Quran :
(Sura 5 44 ) Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged
by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they
were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever
does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.
( 45 ) And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a
tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever
does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
( 48 ) And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture
and as a dominant upon it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from
what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made
you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To
Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.
The Quran then, is dominant upon both the Bible and the Torah, purer and has no corruption.
It was clearly mentioned that those who don't judge by what God revealed, are "wrongdoers".
Finding out the verses which were "truly revealed" by God in the Torah & the Bible, is similar to searching for a needle in a pile
of grass. That's why the Quran is dominant: we already know that the whole text is revelations; there are no Hadiths mixed with
the original text.
I had to explain this point, though. But to answer your question, the verses above prove that we should rule with what God
revealed. What's the most trusted revelation? the Quran.
Ah, Islam is mainly values. The facilities of the country -like law-enforcement, hospitals,tax system...etc- are human business,
the values of Islam though should be applied to that.
One simple example, is overcharging patients at hospitals, helping the handicapped would of course be a wonderful deed, by
the way do you know that God ordered Muslims to help orphans, parents?
( Sura 2 215 ) They ask you, [O Muhammad], what they should spend. Say, "Whatever you spend of good is [to be] for parents
and relatives and orphans and the needy and the traveler. And whatever you do of good - indeed, Allah is Knowing of it."
So technically, the "angry teenager syndrome" of "uhhhhh MOM !!!when do I reach 18 and leave this damn house" is totally
demolished with Islam; your parents must receive from you, not just actions, but cash too.
The amenities of society are up to us, that's why God gave us brains; anyhow.
He taught us math so we know how to calculate, after all:
(Sura 10 verse 5 ) It is He who made the sun a shining light and the moon a derived light and determined for it phases - that
you may know the number of years and account. Allah has not created this except in truth. He details the signs for a people
who know
How do you resolve disagreements between the various Madhhab? Does might make right? What if the Ibadis and the
Ismaili don't want to listen to the Hanafis, who happen to be in charge at the time? Do you treat them like Nimr al-Nimr was
treated and basically say "F you"? People get killed simply for praying slightly differently, because, you know, there are different
ways of doing Salat, so Fiqh will be a major issue.
Since the constitution of the state is the Quran, different Muslim sects must agree to take it to the holy book -only- in their
disputes. It's a verse that says that, after all:
(Sura 42 Verse 10 ) And in anything over which you disagree - its ruling is [to be referred] to Allah. [Say], "That is Allah, my
Lord; upon Him I have relied, and to Him I turn back."
Disagreeing to use the Quran, would take us back to Sura 5 verse 44:
( Sura 5 Verse 44 ) Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah]
judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and
they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And
whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.
And technically, that puts them out of the radar, since the Quran is a book that is binding to Muslims only (and criminals who
assault Muslims; penalty wise).
This verse provide a very good insight:
( Sura 5 42 ) [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, devourers of [what is] unlawful. So if they come to you, [O Muhammad],
judge between them or turn away from them. And if you turn away from them - never will they harm you at all. And if you
judge, judge between them with justice. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
Will people be stopped from "Fatwah shopping"? I.e. Choosing the most preferable Fiqh for the crime that they have
committed?
To be honest, the Quran doesn't leave a lot of room -or even: any room at all- for Fatwah shopping. The verses are extremely
clear. Nothing but the Hadith, that causes this market to open.
BTW, all the differences between Muslims have nothing to do with the Quran. They are all about the Hadith.
Yep. All are mentioned in the book, actually I believe I have missed some already, but going through what I mentioned:
(Sura 17 Verse 33 ) And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden, except by right. And whoever is killed unjustly - We have given his heir authority, but let him not exceed limits in taking life. Indeed, he has been supported.
(Sura 5 verse 38 ) [As for] the thief (male), and the thief (female) , amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
( 39 ) But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allah will turn to him in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Warning: the spoiler contains sensitive images.
( Sura 17 Verse 32 ) And do not approach unlawful sexual intercourse. Indeed, it is ever an immorality and is evil as a way.
( Sura 24 Verse 2 ) The adulteress and the adulterer - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
(Sura 24 4 ) And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient.
( Sura 5 Verse 32 ) Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
( 33 ) Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,
Is it that extreme?
Ah..allow me to introduce you to humanity:
One huge difference, is that I don't see that it must be spread by force -like most believe-, also the Sunni/Shia version demands your death if you ever change faith. What I believe in doesn't say that at all.
That's one difference.
Many exist.
It doesn't we don't share some beliefs.
Just like I share beliefs -too- with seculars,atheists, Christians,Jews, Darwin...etc.
I can surely say that I'm ignorant about the matter of genatics by now. I used to discuss it, but I don't want to fall in a mistake of some kind -I must be sure-, honestly I still didn't form up the final conclusion.
The only thing I believe in, is the genetic change that happened to our ancestors.
I don't have an evidence. I'm taking a leap of faith; I trust my God.
I don't see how this is a problem. It's a matter of: "was he named "Adam" before the invention of Hebrew, or after?
Because, if he was named before the creation of the language, then the Hebrews used his name to refer to the human race with the name of the father,
else it's what you said in your topic about the matter.
It's widely acknowledged in Arabic sources, that Adam in Hebrew means "the human race".
http://www.almaany.com/ar/name/%D8%A2%D8%AF%D9%85/
ignoramus
I would say: that's why we have national anthems and flags for, instead..
Why doesn't Allah just stop IS from killing everyone?
Why would he?
Life is a test ground, it's not like stopping IS killing people, would end and terminate death from the universe.
robvalue
I tend to see things, as in if a verse said left then it's left, if a verse said right then it's right.
If a verse said "there shall be no compulsion in the acceptance of religion", how would I be practicing cherry-picking projection
when I say: Islam should not be forced (compulsively) on others?
Rhythm
Actually there was an Islamic state. The society during the prophet's -peace be upon him- reign was a multicultural society,
enjoying the blessing of diversity -it had Muslims, Jews, Christians & even heathens- living alongside Muslims, some even had
ranks in the army, despite their different faith:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Talib_...l-Muttalib
As you can see, when Romans & Persians were beheading each other in the Levant, the desert dwellers enjoyed some pretty
awesome state of "peace and prosperity" under the law of God, they enjoyed a human rights doctrine, represented through the
Quran.
God exists so..he never wastes the deeds of those who did good. All I want is to mend as much as I can.
MNMP
Where in the Quran does it say that it can be used as a constitution? Or lets put it another way: How much does the Quran
have to say about nation building in general? Isn't Sharia and Caliphates mainly a Hadith thing? Fiqh is commonly understood
to also from the Hadith collections, in addition to Quran and Sunnah, yes or no?
The world has changed so much since Muhammad's time. The Sharia has nothing to say about fire stations, hospitals and
police stations because they weren't around during Muhammad's time. The tax system proposed by Sharia doesn't take into
account the array of amenities that we need to make a modern, healthy, society function. The Saudi and Iran, often cited as
examples of Sharia states, survive on oil. What does the Quran say about looking after people with severe disabilities for
example? Do we do as nomads, in general, have traditionally done, and leave the ill behind because they slow the society down?
Yes. The "caliphate" as a system is indeed a Hadith thing. Though, if the Quran was to be practiced, it might -in some cases-
require a third party that is represented through the state, to carry on certain actions; as in the cases of crimes & rights.
Without that third party, a singular/multiple partied society would not be complete when the Quran is there as the way of life.
Muslims -and all humans, actually- are ordered to rule with the Quran :
(Sura 5 44 ) Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged
by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they
were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever
does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.
( 45 ) And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a
tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever
does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
( 48 ) And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture
and as a dominant upon it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from
what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made
you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To
Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.
The Quran then, is dominant upon both the Bible and the Torah, purer and has no corruption.
It was clearly mentioned that those who don't judge by what God revealed, are "wrongdoers".
Finding out the verses which were "truly revealed" by God in the Torah & the Bible, is similar to searching for a needle in a pile
of grass. That's why the Quran is dominant: we already know that the whole text is revelations; there are no Hadiths mixed with
the original text.
I had to explain this point, though. But to answer your question, the verses above prove that we should rule with what God
revealed. What's the most trusted revelation? the Quran.
Ah, Islam is mainly values. The facilities of the country -like law-enforcement, hospitals,tax system...etc- are human business,
the values of Islam though should be applied to that.
One simple example, is overcharging patients at hospitals, helping the handicapped would of course be a wonderful deed, by
the way do you know that God ordered Muslims to help orphans, parents?
( Sura 2 215 ) They ask you, [O Muhammad], what they should spend. Say, "Whatever you spend of good is [to be] for parents
and relatives and orphans and the needy and the traveler. And whatever you do of good - indeed, Allah is Knowing of it."
So technically, the "angry teenager syndrome" of "uhhhhh MOM !!!when do I reach 18 and leave this damn house" is totally
demolished with Islam; your parents must receive from you, not just actions, but cash too.
The amenities of society are up to us, that's why God gave us brains; anyhow.
He taught us math so we know how to calculate, after all:
(Sura 10 verse 5 ) It is He who made the sun a shining light and the moon a derived light and determined for it phases - that
you may know the number of years and account. Allah has not created this except in truth. He details the signs for a people
who know
How do you resolve disagreements between the various Madhhab? Does might make right? What if the Ibadis and the
Ismaili don't want to listen to the Hanafis, who happen to be in charge at the time? Do you treat them like Nimr al-Nimr was
treated and basically say "F you"? People get killed simply for praying slightly differently, because, you know, there are different
ways of doing Salat, so Fiqh will be a major issue.
Since the constitution of the state is the Quran, different Muslim sects must agree to take it to the holy book -only- in their
disputes. It's a verse that says that, after all:
(Sura 42 Verse 10 ) And in anything over which you disagree - its ruling is [to be referred] to Allah. [Say], "That is Allah, my
Lord; upon Him I have relied, and to Him I turn back."
Disagreeing to use the Quran, would take us back to Sura 5 verse 44:
( Sura 5 Verse 44 ) Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah]
judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and
they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And
whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.
And technically, that puts them out of the radar, since the Quran is a book that is binding to Muslims only (and criminals who
assault Muslims; penalty wise).
This verse provide a very good insight:
( Sura 5 42 ) [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, devourers of [what is] unlawful. So if they come to you, [O Muhammad],
judge between them or turn away from them. And if you turn away from them - never will they harm you at all. And if you
judge, judge between them with justice. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
Will people be stopped from "Fatwah shopping"? I.e. Choosing the most preferable Fiqh for the crime that they have
committed?
To be honest, the Quran doesn't leave a lot of room -or even: any room at all- for Fatwah shopping. The verses are extremely
clear. Nothing but the Hadith, that causes this market to open.
BTW, all the differences between Muslims have nothing to do with the Quran. They are all about the Hadith.
Quote: Got nothing to say about Quran 2:256, so moving swiftly onto the crimes which you listed. You get your morality, as a Quranist, solely from Quran and you also think thay morality is objective. That's fair enough. However, I don't think there was enough detail in this section I felt.
For all of the crimes that you listed, do you have Quran Iyah which you use to determine that each one of those things which you listed are wrong? What method did you use to determine those things are wrong? If for any of those it's simply because you're a decent human being who wants to get along with others then you don't need Quran for that one
Yep. All are mentioned in the book, actually I believe I have missed some already, but going through what I mentioned:
Quote:-Murder
(Sura 17 Verse 33 ) And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden, except by right. And whoever is killed unjustly - We have given his heir authority, but let him not exceed limits in taking life. Indeed, he has been supported.
Quote:-Stealing
(Sura 5 verse 38 ) [As for] the thief (male), and the thief (female) , amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
( 39 ) But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allah will turn to him in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Warning: the spoiler contains sensitive images.
![[Image: hqdefault.jpg]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/i22DvoyuCOc/hqdefault.jpg)
Quote:-Adultery (includes rape)
( Sura 17 Verse 32 ) And do not approach unlawful sexual intercourse. Indeed, it is ever an immorality and is evil as a way.
( Sura 24 Verse 2 ) The adulteress and the adulterer - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
Quote:-Accusing others -with no witnesses/evidence- with committing adultery
(Sura 24 4 ) And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient.
Quote:-Corrupting earth (forming gangs to raid, torturing the innocent...etc)
( Sura 5 Verse 32 ) Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
( 33 ) Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,
Is it that extreme?
Ah..allow me to introduce you to humanity:
- I thought you didn't like Sharia? What you're proposing sounds an awful lot like Sharia. And you need Hadith for Sharia, surely.
One huge difference, is that I don't see that it must be spread by force -like most believe-, also the Sunni/Shia version demands your death if you ever change faith. What I believe in doesn't say that at all.
That's one difference.
Many exist.
It doesn't we don't share some beliefs.
Just like I share beliefs -too- with seculars,atheists, Christians,Jews, Darwin...etc.
Quote:Still waiting for evidence that Adam and Eve existed. Nothing the human genome suggests that all humans descended from two people. What became the humans we know today interbred with Neanderthals and other things. Nobody would want to make the claim Adam and Eve we Neanderthals because that would hurt their religion. So I ask you, when did humans start becoming humans? There's loads of evidence for evolution, and I know that you are sincere person so I'm sure you'll give Adam and Eve some thought.
I can surely say that I'm ignorant about the matter of genatics by now. I used to discuss it, but I don't want to fall in a mistake of some kind -I must be sure-, honestly I still didn't form up the final conclusion.
The only thing I believe in, is the genetic change that happened to our ancestors.
I don't have an evidence. I'm taking a leap of faith; I trust my God.
Quote:In Jewish scripture the word "Adam" is a general term for humans, or at least it used to be seen that way. It's only later that people interpret the word "Adam" as a name, and thus one person. Why is the Quran copying this mistake? I spoke about this here.
I don't see how this is a problem. It's a matter of: "was he named "Adam" before the invention of Hebrew, or after?
Because, if he was named before the creation of the language, then the Hebrews used his name to refer to the human race with the name of the father,
else it's what you said in your topic about the matter.
It's widely acknowledged in Arabic sources, that Adam in Hebrew means "the human race".
http://www.almaany.com/ar/name/%D8%A2%D8%AF%D9%85/
ignoramus
I would say: that's why we have national anthems and flags for, instead..
