Theist zone

[tackattack]

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1-Gravity is a poor qanalogy as we all experience it in the same way and it is independently verifiable and objectively true. Souls are not.
2- We do agree.
3- But the conceptual does not exist without the physical. The idea of for example the existence of 'thought of an apple', 'numbers' and 'logic' existing without material minds to instantiate them, or the frameworks in which they operate, is a bizarre concept that would need explanation. These are inventions of humanity and to ask if they exist within their frameworks (eg numbers in a math framework) is a trivial question where the answer is of course yes. But outside of those frameworks (invented by physical human minds) they do NOT exist in any sense. They have no independent instantiation within the universe.
4-People believed in gravity before they could measure it, because everyone experienced it in the same way. Not the case with 'immaterial' experience in all its forms. There are lots of subjective personal experiences, all of which cannot be true, but all of which can be false and subject to confirmation bias and wish thinking.
5- Equally interesting. Why would they not have the same opportunities as the human animal? How do the animals achieve their level of intelligence and personalities without souls?
6-Yes I did get it. But unfortunately souls are in the same category as aliens, crop circles, crystal healing etc for me. Obviously not for thee
7-Consider the water > wine miracle. The qunatity and quality of water, then subsequently wine was measurable from an apparent supernatural miracle. It would also have been possible to devise controls such that all possible natural means of making the miracle 'appear' were eliminated, or if attempted caught in the act. I would contend it is therefore possible to measure the impact of the supernatural, its just never been done; which is one of the reasons why its probably not true.

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1- Fair enough, bad analogy. Here's another analogy. Close your eyes, you know what position your arm is in and can relate and visualize that in the surrounding environment. You can sense whether you're leaning sitting or laying, whether you're off balance. These are completely subjective measurements. Yet they are senses that exceed the materialistically based 5 senses. They can be manipulated from the physical, and can influence how we interact with the material world, but in and of themselves are insubstantial. Some like the sense of time require nothing more than the brain being “on”. I would lump the soul in with them and other abstract concepts like math and reason, except for there have been cases that defy a materialist explanation. Certainly requires further investigation by the scientific community. What would then be your explanation for NDE that have key common elements? Or actual brain death, yet retaining an irreducible self identity? For now though, I’m content to enjoy the “magic show”.
3- To claim that they are sole inventions of humanity would require support. Can horses count? Does the squirrel realize that 2 nuts are better than one (insert crazy theist joke here)?I do have further comments on frameworks, but I’ll wait for these answers first (and I’m about to go to sleep)
4- If you factor in some degree of bias because of the subjectivity of the observance why couldn’t they all be true or at least indicative? ref By no means completely scientific proof, but would this be indicative that a consistency of elements (regardless of religious background or lack thereof) and no plausible biological explanation for the brain’s recording of events during apparent no activity (or at least no response from outside input) that an explanation would be outside of explainable biology?
5- Intelligence and personalities are attainable (and quite a separate subject) with or without a soul. I never defined a soul as any of those aspects. While a squirrel may be able to count, and apes can show empathy and dolphins …etc. I think recent research show some animal showing signs of reasoning. Do any of them have an irreducible sense of self. There’s no way to effectively communicate (TMK) to find out if they have any experiences after death, but if they could that would be another question.
7- I contend that there is probably it’s probably possible to measure the impact of the supernatural (which would then become natural- just incomplete in our level of understanding of it) as well. I’ll think more on it and go at this again tomorrow/ tonight whatever.