Theist zone

[reverendjeremiah]

1- Fair enough, bad analogy. Here's another analogy. Close your eyes, you know what position your arm is in and can relate and visualize that in the surrounding environment. You can sense whether you're leaning sitting or laying, whether you're off balance. These are completely subjective measurements. Yet they are senses that exceed the materialistically based 5 senses. They can be manipulated from the physical, and can influence how we interact with the material world, but in and of themselves are insubstantial. Some like the sense of time require nothing more than the brain being “on”. I would lump the soul in with them and other abstract concepts like math and reason, except for there have been cases that defy a materialist explanation. Certainly requires further investigation by the scientific community. What would then be your explanation for NDE that have key common elements? Or actual brain death, yet retaining an irreducible self identity? For now though, I’m content to enjoy the “magic show”.

It goes beyond the five materialistic senses? Even touch? Even the nerves that tell you what is going on with your body? Even the sense of time is based on your 5 senses. Lumping a "soul" into them is not needed, and adds extra baggage to something that is easily explainable WITHOUT needing to tie a soul to it. And how does math and reason defy materialistic explanations? Reason defies materialism? Thats a BOLD statement. Math has backed up damn near every materialistic point that has been made. but I am agreeing that you are enjoying your "magic show".

3- To claim that they are sole inventions of humanity would require support. Can horses count? Does the squirrel realize that 2 nuts are better than one (insert crazy theist joke here)?I do have further comments on frameworks, but I’ll wait for these answers first (and I’m about to go to sleep)

Dont forget Goblins and Satyrs while you are at it..they are just as important as souls.

4- If you factor in some degree of bias because of the subjectivity of the observance why couldn’t they all be true or at least indicative? ref By no means completely scientific proof, but would this be indicative that a consistency of elements (regardless of religious background or lack thereof) and no plausible biological explanation for the brain’s recording of events during apparent no activity (or at least no response from outside input) that an explanation would be outside of explainable biology?

Indicative? What, where? What indications? That you WANT to believe in a soul, and therefore is an indications that souls might exist? You keep bringing up that the brain records things when it isnt active, and then claim it has something to do with a "soul". To me you are merely making a suggestiong about the brain itself, since you say it records things while apparently not active. Lets see some legitimate work on this "unactive brain recordings" before we go any further.

5- Intelligence and personalities are attainable (and quite a separate subject) with or without a soul. I never defined a soul as any of those aspects. While a squirrel may be able to count, and apes can show empathy and dolphins …etc. I think recent research show some animal showing signs of reasoning. Do any of them have an irreducible sense of self. There’s no way to effectively communicate (TMK) to find out if they have any experiences after death, but if they could that would be another question.

Thats like saying personalities and intelligence are attainable with or without Karma as well.

7- I contend that there is probably it’s probably possible to measure the impact of the supernatural (which would then become natural- just incomplete in our level of understanding of it) as well. I’ll think more on it and go at this again tomorrow/ tonight whatever.

You contend such? Then by all means post how we may be able to measure a supernatural event? First you have to prove the supernatural, and by measuring it would be a good start. Is it legitimate of me to say you are wrong about a soul not being something that Goblins fool you into believing because your level of understanding about it is incomplete? Of course not, you will get mad at me and roll your eyes at that..but you will say the same thing to me about souls and when I get mad you will say I am being closed minded. Do you not see how you are playing your little emotional games with this? I admit I am playing emotional games with the Goblins, yet you act like your emotional games with a soul is worthy of scientific and serious debate.