RE: Theist zone
March 12, 2011 at 3:36 am
(This post was last modified: March 12, 2011 at 6:43 am by Captain Scarlet.)
(March 11, 2011 at 11:13 am)tackattack Wrote: 1- Fair enough, bad analogy. Here's another analogy. Close your eyes, you know what position your arm is in and can relate and visualize that in the surrounding environment. You can sense whether you're leaning sitting or laying, whether you're off balance. These are completely subjective measurements. Yet they are senses that exceed the materialistically based 5 senses. They can be manipulated from the physical, and can influence how we interact with the material world, but in and of themselves are insubstantial. Some like the sense of time require nothing more than the brain being “on”. I would lump the soul in with them and other abstract concepts like math and reason, except for there have been cases that defy a materialist explanation. Certainly requires further investigation by the scientific community. What would then be your explanation for NDE that have key common elements? Or actual brain death, yet retaining an irreducible self identity? For now though, I’m content to enjoy the “magic show”.Again this analogy fails. The position of limbs, your balance, state of repose are validated by material systems (for example the inner ear wrt balance). All are again independently and objectively verifiable. Souls are not. There isn't one example given that defies a material explanation. I'm sorry why do I have to explain NDE? There has been no case recorded where an individual who has claimed such, has ever "come back" with new information. The sense of floating often reported, has never given rise to actual instances where objects hidden in rooms and only observable from elevated positions have ever been reported back upon. Parsimony would lead us to beleive these are hullanactions of a damaged material body that can still sense activity around. Has anyone actually ever recovered from a brain death? From what I understand it can sometimes be hard to disntinguish between deep and severe coma and brain death. Scientifc studies in this area, clearly cite that were brain death was diagnosed the patient was infact dead and there heart stopped around 4 hrs later (naturally). On the other hand there are lots of well documented cases of brain trauma giving rise to dramatic personality, mood, emotional changes. A result one would not expect if there was an immaterial self, which survived death.
Quote:3- To claim that they are sole inventions of humanity would require support. Can horses count? Does the squirrel realize that 2 nuts are better than one (insert crazy theist joke here)?I do have further comments on frameworks, but I’ll wait for these answers first (and I’m about to go to sleep)[Holds back crazy theist jokes].

Quote:4- If you factor in some degree of bias because of the subjectivity of the observance why couldn’t they all be true or at least indicative? ref By no means completely scientific proof, but would this be indicative that a consistency of elements (regardless of religious background or lack thereof) and no plausible biological explanation for the brain’s recording of events during apparent no activity (or at least no response from outside input) that an explanation would be outside of explainable biology?Indicate what? A confirmation bias?
Quote:5- Intelligence and personalities are attainable (and quite a separate subject) with or without a soul. I never defined a soul as any of those aspects. While a squirrel may be able to count, and apes can show empathy and dolphins …etc. I think recent research show some animal showing signs of reasoning. Do any of them have an irreducible sense of self. There’s no way to effectively communicate (TMK) to find out if they have any experiences after death, but if they could that would be another question.If souls do not contain our personalities, what is the point of them surviving death? It would not be us.
Quote:7- I contend that there is probably it’s probably possible to measure the impact of the supernatural (which would then become natural- just incomplete in our level of understanding of it) as well. I’ll think more on it and go at this again tomorrow/ tonight whatever.OK
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"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence"...Doug McLeod.