Aren't Science vs. Creation Debates......rather pointless?

[maestroanth]

Testhgh

---

I hit a nerve somewhere.  I really don't appreciate your tone.

---

 Plus you're all talk, I can find numerous of tests testifying to the same stuff you mention everywhere, and I was even part of a California study which 'of course' testified to the same thing.  My point is, there are exceptions and statistical outliers. - I was I think only one out of two that actually passed their exam with flying colors that also had no early training in perfect pitch and music in general.  I actually stayed quite in close touch with the professor doing those studies too since you accused me of "not doing any research".

I've actually walked the walk learning perfect pitch and been part of a couple studies. So if you want me to respect your 'doctorate in music', then you should respect what I accomplished as well and also sound professional in your responses. It's hard to take you seriously when you have lines like, " Perhaps if you read up on your subject, instead of pulling "facts" out of your ass, you might actually sound intelligent," and "Is is possibly because you did no research into the subject and didn't know what the fuck you were pontificating about?"  Those are lines an arrogant, whiney teenager would say - not an educated professional.

And I hate to say it, but I have a master's in music too, and those degrees are a lot easier to come by than in most scientific fields. I have a second masters but in computer science and it was a lot harder.  Anyway to show my "walk", feel free to check out http://www.prolobe.com and it has oodles of concrete statistics there under two usernames I had: maestroanth and curiousgeorge.  You should maybe try that program yourself sometime too instead of finding more studies by psychologists with questionable musical skills to quote, but I think your mind is already set.

If you are still angry and want to argue about this, then there is a forum there too on that site where you can post so it's not off-topic.

---

Well, you did hit a nerve.  Your tone was the bragging posturing was the same as I run into all the time - guys talking your ear off about how they're geniuses and better than everybody else, but when you put them through a tryout, they can't even sight-read the easiest example.  Then they try to yell at you because "I don't need any of that stuff, just let me play, you're an elitist snob".  He was followed by a "brilliant" singer who brought a high soprano accompaniment, when she's a contralto, and tells me to "just play what's there, I'll make it work".  I did, she couldn't, and she was cussing me out for being incompetent.  So yeah, your post sounded like #3.  I apologize for my tone, I should have just posted the research.

Hmmm....we may have more common ground than you think actually because I know those types and they piss me off. Those PP musicians are often terrible because they have their heads so far up their @$$ for so long. I had a PP neighbor that was that arrogant and cocky (this was before I even really knew what perfect pitch was) and he'd name notes of everything and consider himself this great musician. Well, I was baffled because he didn't have much theory skills and I had to ear train chords and intervals and he didn't even know what those were and wouldn't help me. His philosophy was, "if you had perfect pitch like me, you wouldn't need those things..", which didn't make sense to me since chords and intervals is fundamental how we hear notes as music.

Later, I learned that the key center actually was confusing my objectivity on naming interval cues. With no one to train with me, I finally found prolobe on the web 14 years ago which really helped me sort out what I was hearing in key difference cues and what I was hearing as intervals cues. Then I drilled everything hardcore memorizing it all and I really started to excel.

Of course, after about a semester of hard work, I went back to my neighbor and told him that I was able to memorize all the notes, intervals, etc. by ear even perfect pitch. He was ghastly offended and was like, "So you think you learned perfect pitch like I have? That's not possible. You have to be born with it. I think you just learned really good relative pitch." - he acted like it was this superman pedestal impossible to reach. In turn, I was offended and I told him I knew the difference and told him to come over so I can show him.

Anyway, he did, we named pitches equally well on the piano and plucking strings, so we needed something more, and I threw him on the final level of prolobe where you had to name crazy random note chords all in random timbres and he failed horribly while I shined since I worked hard on all that crap. I told simply him that see, even your perfect pitch needs practice now and then. Oh maaannn, he was pissed being humbled like that in HIS turf and was coming up with excuses why "I still couldn't have it since I wasn't born with it, or the program must be faulty, etc." He just couldn't accept the evidence in front of his eyes.

All it did for me is leave a nasty pit in my stomach realizing that people will just "believe what they want to believe" for sake of tradition, religion, or their egos even in the face of direct evidence of reality. It's bizarre. And makes me sick.