(April 26, 2016 at 11:44 am)SteveII Wrote:(April 26, 2016 at 9:59 am)Constable Dorfl Wrote: From what I can gather Steve's argument (roadrunner doesn't go so far to actually forward an arguments, he just snipes at other posters) is essentially that the universe must have by its nature certain conditions, first that there was a period where it didn't exist (but where time did), second that it was created, third that it was created according to a conscious plan (as all things need these three things), thus god.
However his argument falls apart, because when it comes to god none of these things necessary, he arbitrarily excludes god from the set of "all things" because it creates uncomfortable questions for him, viz "who maketh the maker?" and "is it gods all the way back?"
You forgot a necessary attribute in your list. Whatever caused the universe (or its predecessor) must have been uncaused to avoid a past infinite regression absurdity.
That's why the Kalam Argument is phrased "Anything that began to exist must have a cause of it's existence".
Yes, 'things' (or ideas) that began to exist, such as the Canaanite El/Yahweh. Or are you willing to make the case that your pet god is the very same as the philosophical uncaused cause you are arguing for?
If not, why not? After all, this is the Christianity sub-forum. Connect the dots for us.
