(May 4, 2016 at 4:39 pm)SteveII Wrote:(May 3, 2016 at 7:03 pm)wiploc Wrote: "Causally prior." I like it. If causes need not (chronologically) precede effects, then the creation event need not have happened yet. If the Large Hadron Collider doesn't manage it, some later--even more powerful--collider may do the job. If causes need not precede effects, your god is out of a job.
If Jehovah can exist timelessly and changelessly, atemporally, causally prior to the rest of the universe, why can't other things? Why can't the cosmic egg that caused the big bang have existed atemporally? For that matter--I had a big mac for lunch--how do I know that my big mac wasn't causally prior to the partaverse?
I guess that is possible. Can you think of something else that is non-physical that would exist prior to the universe
"Prior to the universe"? Do you mean causally prior? If you mean temporally prior, then nothing can be prior; you can't be before time. But if you mean causally prior, then--since you are abandoning the idea of causes preceding effects--everything that ever has or will exist is a candidate. Since you have abandoned the normal meaning of "cause," nothing at all can be eliminated as the cause of the universe.
I know you have this theory that things before time have to be non-physical, but, first, you can have no justification for that claim aside from wanting your non-physical god to be the conclusion of the argument.
Second, "before time" is self-contradictory gibberish. You can't draw any logical conclusion from self-contradictory gibberish, not non-physicality or anything else.
Third, since you have abandoned the requirement that causes precede effects, the cause of the universe need not have happened yet. As I said above, anything that has happened or will happen, for the entire duration of the universe, may be have been or may yet become the cause of the universe.
Quote: that would have some metaphysical properties we can discuss?
We can discuss any metaphysical properties you want.
Quote: Would it have existed necessarily or contingently?
I can't imagine anything existing necessarily, certainly not a god. There are godless possible worlds. Therefore, by definition, no god is necessary. [/quote]