(May 5, 2016 at 10:48 am)SteveII Wrote: You missed the qualifier in the sentence preceding the quote: "prior to the universe".
I've ever only been talking about the absurdity of your notion regarding a timeless God existing "prior to the universe." I don't care what you think he did or didn't do after he supposedly created everything for purposes of this discussion.
(May 5, 2016 at 10:48 am)SteveII Wrote: Your objection is that there was no time in order to change from this state into creating the universe. Why is it not possible, that God, after existing timelessly created the universe--which would be a mental event causally prior to the universe taking shape?
I've already addressed this in my thread on "Timelessness"...
Quote:So to exist “timelessly” prior to the creation of the universe based upon an A-theory of time, God would not have a past, nor a future, only an eternal, unchanging “now.” This begs the question of how an unchanging, timeless being can do anything? Some theists want to imagine that God first existed prior to creating the universe, then created the universe (including, ironically, time itself). This is having their cake and eating it too.
Try to follow: You can't have change in a completely timeless reality. Note the self-contradicting highlighted words in your question, "Why is it not possible, that God, after existing timelessly created the universe--which would be a mental event causally prior to the universe taking shape?" This leads to questions you clearly cannot answer, such as, How long was God timeless for prior to creating the universe?
(May 5, 2016 at 10:48 am)SteveII Wrote: Alternatively, why isn't it possible that God causing the event was simultaneous with the effect (since it was only efficient causation--not material causation)?
I'll again quote myself...
Quote:Others imagine God existing, considering, deciding, and creating the universe all at the same instant the universe came into being. But this implies God never existed prior to the universe, and thus if the universe had a beginning, so did God; or if God is eternal, so then the universe.
So, in this scenario, did God have a beginning? Or is the universe actually infinite and eternal? And the simple fact that you consider both of these possibilities in your overall question suggests you don't know which, if either, is correct for your own God!
In response to your general statement...
(May 5, 2016 at 10:48 am)SteveII Wrote: I realize I am not going to convince any of you that God exists.If only God would do his own convincing and come out of hiding, he could clear all this right up.
(May 5, 2016 at 10:48 am)SteveII Wrote: What some are not getting is that these questions are not new. They have been answered extensively. There is no coherent argument you can raise that has not been addressed....No one said these questions are new. Yes, apologists attempt to answer them "extensively" - but this doesn't prove their validity. However, I believe you are wrong... there is room for new arguments which have not been addressed. I believe I've come up with a few myself on this forum which I haven't encountered elsewhere. Clearly, your struggles to find ready-made answers leave you floundering with contradictory statements and "what ifs." Keep in mind, every argument that can be made for the Christian god can be made for any god or powerful supernatural universe creating being, including magic pixies or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. And whatever your particular faith, you can be assured that other apologists address and soundly refute many of your beliefs from other denominations or religions. That's why, given all the conjecture, speculation, and madness, humans should rely on objective, reliable evidence before being convinced of any supernatural claims.
Steve, I truly hope that you can at least admit to yourself that you don't really know how your God could actually accomplish all you've insisted, and honestly question your own internal inconsistencies. Theists become atheists not because God abandons them, but because the absurdities of all those irrational data points you mention finally shatters their cognitive dissonance.