(May 11, 2016 at 3:33 pm)Time Traveler Wrote: 1) Define cause and effect.
2) Demonstrate simultaneous cause and effect is plausible under your definition.
3) Even if we grant whatever you mean by simultaneous cause and effect, you still can't get around the fact that, God could not exist timelessly and changelessly without the universe prior to causing time to exist within the universe. This is a non sequitur.
(May 11, 2016 at 12:46 pm)SteveII Wrote: Why does causation presuppose the existence of time?Review the first video in my "Timelessness" thread here: http://atheistforums.org/thread-42797.html
Time becomes an emergent property of causality. Or, put in terms of the video, "Causality is responsible for Time."
Third time trying to post this...
First, we must distinquish between a material cause and an efficient cause (there are more types of causes, but I don't think they are germane to the discussion). A material cause always precedes its effect. It is not so clear that an efficient cause does.
For example, take a train locomotive and a freight car connected by a coupling with 0% flex. When the locomotive starts moving (the efficient cause), the freight care moves as well (the effect). Simultaneous.
Another thought experiment: Take an artist and a clay vase. The clay is the material cause. The efficient cause is not the artist (person) alone. That artist can go home from the studio and may be a mother or daughter and engage in other activities. It is only the artist (person) and the act of molding the clay together that can be considered the efficient cause and therefore necessarily simultaneous with the effect (the vase).
Regarding your point 3), why do you say that? Do you imagine that God had to count down 3...2...1...create?
Time is a measurement of a sequence of events and/or the duration between them. Does time require causality or does causality require time?