(May 12, 2016 at 5:51 pm)Time Traveler Wrote:(May 12, 2016 at 4:48 pm)SteveII Wrote:
(May 12, 2016 at 4:48 pm)SteveII Wrote: First, your answer to my thought experiments was simply...we can always find the material cause. The point was, there was no material cause at the point of creating the universe.
It is YOUR bald assertion that there "was no material cause at the point of creating the universe." This is what YOU have to demonstrate. So far, you have failed.
Ugh. To avoid a past infinite regression, there was no material in which to create a universe out of.
Quote:(May 12, 2016 at 4:48 pm)SteveII Wrote: 1) Did God exist timelessly and changelessly by himself, prior to the creation of the universe? Answer: Yes.
Okay, after all this, your "Yes" to this question finally establishes that you believe 1) There was a period prior to the creation of the universe, and 2) God existed in a timeless, changeless state during this period.
Question: How long was this period prior to the creation of time in which God existed in a timeless, changeless state?
There was no time so measuring it would be nonsensical. Since I am positing a beginning to the universe and a change in God, use of the word prior just refers to the previous state.
Quote:(May 12, 2016 at 4:48 pm)SteveII Wrote: However, existing in a state of changelessness does not mean the potential for change is not there. You are confusing changeless with immutability (incapable of change). A timeless being must also be changeless (as we have been discussing). At the point of creation, a change occurred from existing timelessly and unchanging to temporal and changing (entering into an new relationship would be a change).
Question: Even if God had the "potential" for change, what internal mechanism could ever trigger a change in a timeless, changeless being that somehow existed prior to the creation of time?
God's decision to create was a timeless one in that there was no period of indecision preceding it. God could not have created the universe sooner. It simply is that God was timeless and changeless sans the universe and temporal and changing with the universe.