RE: Why do Christians become Christians?
May 14, 2016 at 9:53 am
(This post was last modified: May 14, 2016 at 10:23 am by TheRocketSurgeon.)
(May 14, 2016 at 8:22 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I did read the links you provided.... and I agree with much of it. I thought for a moment, that it was going to lead into scientism, but was pleasantly surprised that it did not. With your comments here, I'm not so sure.
I had to look up the definition of scientism. Respectfully, although you used it correctly in your implication, I think you're applying it wrong. Science is a method of testing information. That's all. It is therefore limited to that which can be tested via that method. That which cannot be tested cannot be science.
You are perhaps referring to my skepticism, in which I refuse to accept or acknowledge claims that refer to things which cannot be tested... and in which I refuse to accept things which are claimed but can be tested, but have been shown to be phenomena other than what our pattern-finding brains have told us, as a social collective mythology, yet are naturally explainable (I like to use Thor the God of Thunder for this sort of example).
You are, in effect, trying to shame us for not believing in the magic your cult accepts as real. As most of my family are Catholic, I'm aware of that sect's penchant for trying to show magic (oh, sorry, "miracles") occur in real life... yet those are frequently claims tested via the scientific method by groups like CSICOP and the Skeptics Society, and shown not to be magic.
As a scientist, or "scientismist" if you prefer, then, I will accept those claims the moment divine magic can be demonstrated to be a real phenomenon, and not just the invention of human minds.
And, just to touch briefly, of course the "church fathers" wished to stress the continuity of the church from the earliest days, and to show their audience that their sect deserved to dominate because it was The One True Church, against all the "heretical" versions of Christianity (meaning anything but themselves). They won, and the victors got to write the history. We have extensive evidence of the Orthodox Christians (en route to becoming the Catholic, or universal, church) destroying the temples and writings of other versions. [Edit to Add: To be fair, some of the church leaders were opposed to this destruction, and wrote condemning the practice.] My conclusion is drawn from inference-- we see the pattern of myth-building, from the collections of sayings of Jesus the Rabbi (such as the Sermon on the Mount) which can be drawn from writings like James and the assembled Q Document, to the early Gospels we have today, in which Jesus the Legend/Messiah/SonofGod becomes increasingly magical and divine with each year that passes. By looking at the way other religions in more modern times, where records are better (e.g. the Mormons), we can see the pattern of how humans invent religions in general. Only your bias toward Christianity keeps you from seeing that this same pattern applies to the legend of Jesus of Nazareth.
Finally, my comment was not skewed. Read the conviction stories of the people who were convicted falsely, and later freed by scientific testing. A recent example I can name off the top of my head is Michael Morton, of Texas. Spend some time reading stories from The Innocence Project. http://www.innocenceproject.org/
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.