(May 14, 2016 at 9:10 am)Time Traveler Wrote:*emphasis mine*(May 13, 2016 at 11:06 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: It seems someone never received the memo that time is relative...
Not only did I get the memo, I am a firm advocate for the Theory of Relativity (both special and general). But the Relativity doesn't help a theist who asserts 1) Time began when the universe was created, and 2) There was a timeless time on the universe's timeline before time began in which God existed. Additionally, the implications of Relativity support the B-theory of time, which I've addressed here: http://atheistforums.org/thread-42797.html. William Lane Craig and other proponents of a "timeless" deity derived from the KCA are not in favor of a Relativity based theory of time in which past, present, and future all co-exist equally.
"began" defines a point in TIME when something started, and anything that was created had a beginning. God is eternal, which is the very definition of timeless (no beginning and no end) since it cant be measured.
So in short, time exists for the creation, not the creator.
I'm not familiar with the beliefs of William Lane Craig, but I can tell you this, the past present and future all coexisting equally can be supported with the bible. Does not the bible state that Jesus Christ was slain (past tense) before the foundation of the world? If Jesus was crucified before the world was created then it shows that past, present and future do in fact coexist equally.
(May 14, 2016 at 9:10 am)Time Traveler Wrote: for photons, they exist within the universe. A photon is emitted when an electron at a high energy level converts to a lower energy level, or, in the early universe, when leptons and antileptons annihilated each other. The first photons appeared about 10 seconds after the Big Bang in what is known as the Photon Epoch, after quarks, hadrons, and leptons appeared. So if God is indeed "light," it would appear the universe preceded God and he was rather late to the party.
Also, if you could please explain the physics behind how a massless particle such as a photon - which predates the universe - can not only exist outside the universe, but create all the space, time, matter and energy within the universe, that would be helpful. You might even win a Nobel prize! And can you please define the photon's rest frame via a Lorentz transformation because, from what I've come to understand, it just isn't properly defined mathematically to describe massless particles, and thus leads to nonsensical, seemingly paradoxical results. In this case, you will have to find another method to mathematically prove your assertions regarding time and space from a photon's rest frame.
Finally, if "God is light," then we have no need for "God" because we already have a perfectly good definition of light, which we not surprisingly call... "light."
The point of the photon example was to illustrate how timelessness and time are relative to the point of view.
Quote:You are correct, there is nothing incoherent about a "timeline," UNLESS you are idiotic enough to insist that one of those states on the timeline is... timeless!
Time and distance doesn't exist from the point of view of a photon, yet from our point of view, the distance in which light travels can be measured by time.
I don't presume to know what the essence of God is, I haven't reached that level of arrogance just yet.