(May 14, 2016 at 11:13 am)Huggy74 Wrote:(May 14, 2016 at 9:10 am)Time Traveler Wrote:"began" defines a point in TIME when something started, and anything that was created had a beginning. God is eternal, which is the very definition of timeless (no beginning and no end) since it cant be measured.
So in short, time exists for the creation, not the creator.
There are two competing concepts of "Timeless" at play here: 1) Eternal in the sense of forever... an actual infinity of moments past, present, and future... and 2) No time, or zero time, in which change or transition or causal relationships are impossible. If we take the latter concept, and time exists for the creation and not the creator, then there was literally no time at which God pre-existed the universe and therefore God and the universe always co-existed at the exact same instant. If you propose, on the other hand, God always pre-existed the universe eternally (infinitely), then you have a different take on the issue from SteveII and WLC. If this is the case, then God's "time" could be measured relative to (not to be confused with the Theory of Relativity) the universe's beginning, though we might never trace God's time back to an actual beginning. So, did God have a succession of thoughts prior to the creation of the universe? Did he, or could he do anything prior to the creation of the universe? What was the catalyst which caused God to change and create the universe?
(May 14, 2016 at 9:10 am)Time Traveler Wrote:
(May 14, 2016 at 11:13 am)Huggy74 Wrote: The point of the photon example was to illustrate how timelessness and time are relative to the point of view.
[And yet, you go on to spew this...]
If God IS light, then it would make sense that time doesn't exist for him, right?
[and...]
As if I'm just making it up.
1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[and yet oddly assert...]
I don't presume to know what the essence of God is, I haven't reached that level of arrogance just yet.
You in fact do arrogantly presume when you state "God is light" and back it up with biblical scripture. Furthermore, If God is indeed light, then your example wasn't just an analogy but rather a definition of God. If God is literally light, which is comprised of individual photons, and photons are created within the universe in the manner that I previously described, then you have a blatant contradiction. Feel free to reinterpret 1 John 1:5 now. I don't think you really want to imagine your God actually being light; it just leads to ridiculous conclusions.
(May 14, 2016 at 11:13 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Time and distance doesn't exist from the point of view of a photon, yet from our point of view, the distance in which light travels can be measured by time.
All photon's have a beginning and are caused by some physical process (as I've described before). You keep attempting to describe Relativity within the universe as if it's analogous to something external to the universe. Relativity exists as an attribute of space-time and describes the warping and movement of things through space-time itself. Remove space-time, and you eliminate Relativity. Relativity cannot apply to a God existing absent space-time... you would need a completely new theory. Good luck.