Dr. Craig is a liar.

[SteveII]

It's funny how, from my entire post, this is the one section you choose to address. But okay.

Locomotives don't magically "start moving." The locomotive and freight car move because potential energy, perhaps from coal, is converted to mechanical energy. Pistons fire, the drive shaft turns wheels, friction between the wheel and track due mainly to gravity then create a force which cause the train as a unit to accelerate.

An artist too has a process in which they convert energy into action, which then is responsible for shaping matter into a form the artist defines as a "vase."

For each of these processes, if you look more closely, you see a causal chain of material events, one after another. If not for the combustion of coal, the pistons would not fire. If not for the pistons firing, the drive shaft would not move, etc. If not for the intent to mold clay, the artist would not begin. If not for directing their energy into action, the clay would not move, if not for declaring the clay "a vase," no vase would exist, etc. At no point is there a non-material cause. (If you want to argue the thoughts of the artist are non-material, I suggest you demonstrate this by shutting down their brain and seeing what gets produced then.)

"Do you imagine that God had to count down 3...2...1...create?" I don't imagine your God can do anything since things which don't exist have trouble creating anything. These are YOUR arguments, and I'm asking you to defend your ridiculous notion of a timeless, changeless deity doing anything. Yet almost every time I ask you a question, I get back William Lane Craig's ideas. When Craig is silent on a subject, you avoid answering. It's almost like you don't have any independent thoughts on this topic yourself (except the contradictory ones, which I've previously exposed).

But we'll do this again to see if you can answer direct questions...

Let's try two simple Yes/No questions based on our discussion, addressing the implications of each answer:

1) Did God exist timelessly and changelessly by himself, prior to the creation of the universe?
1a) If Yes, then by definition, something that is changeless cannot change, something that is timeless will never transition from one state to another; therefore, God could not have logically been the agent of change, and could not have transitioned from a (timeless + no universe) state to a (temporal + universe) state.
1b) If No, see question 2.

2) Was God's existence simultaneous with his creation of the universe?
2a) If Yes, and if the universe had a beginning as theists' assert, then God had a beginning at the exact same moment as the universe. If two things can begin to exist at the exact same moment, and we have empirical evidence for one (the universe) and absolutely no evidence for the other (God), then we can safely excise the latter as wholly superfluous.
2b) If No, then God must have preceded the universe, see question 1.

First, your answer to my thought experiments was simply...we can always find the material cause. The point was, there was no material cause at the point of creating the universe. So, what is your point then? There could be no efficient cause because there was no material cause? Why?

1) Answer: Yes. However, existing in a state of changelessness does not mean the potential for change is not there. You are confusing changeless with immutability (incapable of change). A timeless being must also be changeless (as we have been discussing). At the point of creation, a change occurred from existing timelessly and unchanging to temporal and changing (entering into an new relationship would be a change).

Okay, those are fair questions.

Let's start with why I said personal. God created the universe instead of not creating the universe (which seems to be the only two choices). The creation act seems to be a free act of the will rather than something determined by some prior condition.

The quote I posted a page or two ago might help with the timeless question:


If God is omniscient, he would know all truths simultaneously in his timeless state. An entity who knows all truths does not have to think about things, reason things out, etc. (and therefore mark time with mental events).  As the quote above says, that timeless state ended when the universe was created.  Time started at that point. God was extrinsically changed by his creation. The creative act was simultaneous with its effect.

Address the questions.

Sorry I did not address you directly. I did address these points with Time Traveler on page 76 (pasted above). I would be happy to continue, but please start a new thread. This one is tired.