(August 10, 2016 at 5:54 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:(August 10, 2016 at 4:33 pm)SteveII Wrote: 1. Again, your opinion. Evangelical Christianity has decreased by 0.9% in 7 years in the US. Is that even the margin of error? Probably not cause for celebration. Numbers are growing worldwide.
2. Feel better is different than a change in character, self-worth, conduct, outlook, and hope. You are trying to minimize the change to fit your argument. As I mentioned in my longer post a page back, can you generate that kind of change with a non-religious experience? If so, what? If not, why not?
3. You are confusing my point. "...love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" as well as hope is subjective but a change in a person to these qualities is objectively better than not.
bold mine
1. Source for the bold. I'll bet I can find sources that say otherwise. Christian sources. Suck it up, you are loosing.
2. You are trying to maximize change to fit yours. So any beneficial change requires religion, horseshit. Surviving an accident/illness can cause a change. Being imprisoned can cause a change. Being struck by lightening can cause a change. Death of someone close can cause a change. Education can cause a change. Science can cause a change. Medicine can cause a change.
3. I'm not confusing anything. You are not impartial.
1. Pew Research http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/ameri...landscape/
2. I see you moved from your original 'feeling' to changes in a person. Your examples could induce change in a person (for good or bad). Salvation as part of Christianity induces a specific set of large scale changes that are repeated over and over for millennium. Setting aside the catastrophic causes, how does education, science or medicine change a person in the way I was describing? More specifically, how do these things change a persons character so they exhibit things like love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control and hope when none may have existed before? I still don't think you can identify one non-religious process that can produce similar results with any kind of predictable consistency. Therefore, the experience that does reliably produce these effects as well as the individual's intuition that their relationship with God is real is empirical evidence for the existence of God.
3. Impartiality has nothing to do with it. The effects of salvation as described in the NT and as experienced by a believer leaves a person in an objectively better (psychologically and sociologically) state than they were previously.