Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
(May 30, 2011 at 12:44 pm)RAD Wrote: Why should I believe any atheist is smarter than Newton, Jefferson, Bacon or Locke?
If you're referring to Thomas Jefferson, you do know that he was an anti-theism deist right? In fact he edited his own version of the bible to cut out all of the crap he thought uselsess, which didn't leave much left.
LMFAO..the founding fathers were talking all of the religious crap in front of the voters, but behind closed doors they were sending letters to each other ragging on Christianity, and religion in general.. Thomas Jeffer
James Madison on the church being the supporters of tyranny Wrote:"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
- "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
James Madison Wrote:"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
-1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches
So there is James Madison HIMSELF calling the first Amendment "Seperation of church and state". Many christians who really hate the first Amendment and America claim that there is no such thing as seperation of church and state. The founding fathers would have strongly disagreed with them and perhaps even accused them of trying to set up another religious tyranny by suggesting such.
Benjamin Franklin on how he left Christianity to become a Deist Wrote:". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."
Benjamin Franklin pointing out the hypocrisy of Christians (of which he was not a member) Wrote:"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."
- Works, Vol. VII, p. 75
Quote:"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)
Quote:Abraham Lincoln's first law partner, John T. Stuart, said of him: "He was an avowed and open infidel, and sometimes bordered on atheism. He went further against Christian beliefs and doctrines and principles than any man I have ever heard."
Quote:Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]
George Washington was private about his religious beliefs, but it was generally accepted that he was a Deist/Freemason like his fellow founding comrades. In that time it was common knowledge that those who were intellectuals, science minded, or naturalists, were Deistic instead of Christian. Rarely was it brought up as something bad, but Thomas Jeffersons political opponent once accused Jefferson of being an atheist.
Quote:Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."
-Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, Feb. 1800
=====
Thomas Jefferson was SCATHING against Religion in general, and Christianity SPECIFICALLY:
Quote:"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
- "Notes on Virginia"
Jefferson on faith versus reason Wrote:"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
- letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787
Jefferson sending a note John Adams mocking the concept of the trinity and suggesting its preachers to be con men Wrote:"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."
- to John Adams, 1803
Jefferson suggesting that the Christian church is the enemy of freedom and the spreader of ignorance Wrote:"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
Jefferson on the violence that religion brings because of the ignorant things those religions suggest Wrote:"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."
- to Carey, 1816
Jefferson saying that he is not a Christian, but is in fact a Materialist Wrote:"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." - to Carey, 1816
Jefferson taking the piss out of calvinism Wrote:"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.
1. That there are three Gods.
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing.
3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith.
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save."
- to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822
The Calvinists of his day are the modern equivalent of "evangelicals". Jefferson would have scoffed at you RAD.
Jefferson on how the book of Revelation is unimportant and manical Wrote:"It has been fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and then I considered it merely the ravings of a maniac."
I agree Jefferson..the book of Revelations IS batshit insane.
Jefferson..Christianity is superstition and fable Wrote:"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
Jefferson saying the Gospels are lies, superstitions, fanatacism, and myths Wrote:"We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ."
You're basing what G.Washington believed from a book written 200 years after his life, well sounds like you do not practice what you preach. G. Washington was a devoted christian. If you are interested in the truth you should read Washington's personal prayer book that was discovered in 1891,written in his own handwritting. Much of his theology is revealed in these prayers and when one reads these prayers it leaves no doubt that he was a true christian.
This from a source close to Washington when he was president of the U.S., Mr. Lewis being his personal secretary and nephew saw Washington during his devotional time on his knees and with a Bible open in front of him praying, this he wittnessed on different occasions morning and evening, and believed this to be a daily practice.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.