RE: Supernatural isn't a useful concept
November 6, 2016 at 11:11 am
(This post was last modified: November 6, 2016 at 11:18 am by Mudhammam.)
(November 6, 2016 at 4:55 am)theologian Wrote: It seems to me that you are saying that God creating creation is impossible, because that will give God potentiality and therefore it will falsify that God is Pure Act of Being. Is that what you are showing here?If God is Pure Act of Being then it would seem, by your claim that God creates in time, that He is only sometimes Pure Act, but that his Being and his Act are separable from each other -- which is a contradiction of the notion that by necessity God is Pure Actuality, and that his Actuality is Being, i.e. Pure Act of Being. But of course, this is incompatible with the notion of creation, which is the reduction of the Possible into the Actual, and in your view, the reduction of God's Act from potentiality into actuality, which you suggested is but His Pure Act of Being.
(November 6, 2016 at 4:55 am)theologian Wrote: If so, then this is what I can answer. It was demonstrated that God Whom is Pure Act of Being must exist.Yes, just as it was demonstrated that the concept of God is superfluous and that manner of being must exist, not wholly but only in its substratum, the part that is pure Act of Being rather than the part that is only a manner.
(November 6, 2016 at 4:55 am)theologian Wrote: Now, it follows that there must be no potentiality in Him and you are correct in that proposition. However, creation is not God's action reducing from potentiality into actuality in Him.So, then if His Action was not in Him, which part of His Being relates to his Act? He is Pure Act of Being, remember.
(November 6, 2016 at 4:55 am)theologian Wrote: Remember, God must be Pure Act of Being.Yes! Good!
(November 6, 2016 at 4:55 am)theologian Wrote: What then is creation? What is that potentiality that is reduced to actuality in creation? Of course, it is all the created things which is reduced from potentiality to actuality and not God when we're talking about creation.But the created things, you claim, existed in God, in potentiality, which is nonsensical, because you also he said he was Pure Act of Being. So how do all things exist in potentiality in the one thing that is Pure Act of Being, and how do they become reduced to Action without an additional Actuality to cause them to do so? You also said that God is not a manner of being, but then you said that God was the manner of a creator. But if God was not always creator, as his Act of creation was at one time potential and not Pure Act, then God subsumed a manner of being, i.e. creator, which contradicts your argument.
(November 6, 2016 at 4:55 am)theologian Wrote: After all, created things are not God.No, but you said they are his Act, and that God is Pure Act of Being
(November 6, 2016 at 4:55 am)theologian Wrote: It's like the case where Socrates didn't really became shorter when his friend became taller. Therefore, God's creation doesn't make Him not Pure Act of Being.I agree. That's why your conception of creation in time and God as subsuming the manner of being although at the same time being Pure Act of Being are contradictory and must be discarded into the waste bin of failed arguments.
(November 6, 2016 at 4:55 am)theologian Wrote: Actually, this is where we can know that God is free and He loves us, for He created us even though He need not us because He is Pure Act of Being, so we are created so that we can share in His happiness.Why would he degrade God-world, where only a loving Pure Act of Being exists, to create one with infinitely inferior creatures with which to share his Happiness? Do you deny that God is three persons or that there are angelic beings whom never fail to displease God, which offer God a better opportunity to share His happiness and not further degrade God-world -- a place of perfection -- as no conceivable perfect being would freely chose to do?
(November 6, 2016 at 4:55 am)theologian Wrote: Now, your second point is that matter, energy and particles are the pure act of being. Am I correct with that understanding?No. The substratum by and from which matter, energy, and particles naturally began to take their present forms is Pure Act of Being. Everything else is its manner of being.
(November 6, 2016 at 4:55 am)theologian Wrote: Matter, energy and particles cannot be Pure Act of Being.Matter, energy, and particles are a manner of being. A manner of being is two parts, manner and being. The being is Pure Act of Being, of which manner -- manner, energy, and particles -- takes but a part, but is not itself Pure Act.
(November 6, 2016 at 4:55 am)theologian Wrote: For, whatever is bounded by space cannot be Pure Act of Being, (for Pure Act of Being is Boundless, and whatever is bounded by space is not boundless).Pure Act of Being is also bounded by the Eternal Now of time, and space is not boundary but the absence of boundary. A boundary is involves two points, and a line, from whence we arrive at shape -- and a shape involves body, the lack of which is space.
(November 6, 2016 at 4:55 am)theologian Wrote: But, it is obvious that energy, matter and particles are bounded by space. Therefore, matter, energy and particles are not Pure Act of Being.Right, only a part of Pure Act of Being, the part of being that is individuated into a manner or form.
(November 6, 2016 at 4:55 am)theologian Wrote: Now, what I can understand from your post is that manner of being is a perfection. However, manner of perfection is not something. Manner of perfection is what limits the act of being. Manner of Being thus limits and makes lesser the act of being of a being.But no perfect being would degrade the perfection of God-world. Therefore, God is not the Pure Act of Being or actuality that caused a manner of being to begin to exist, as "Manner of Being thus limits and makes lesser the act of being of a being." Therefore, the Pure Act of Being is not perfect or manner of being is not an imperfection. In either case, your perfect God is necessarily excluded from the choices.
(November 6, 2016 at 4:55 am)theologian Wrote: Now, the principle of causality implies that the effect can either be equal or less than the cause, but not greater, for as we both hold: "from nothing, only nothing comes". But, the creation is something lesser which is caused by God Whom is Infinitely Greater than the creation, for creation is limited by its manner of being. So, creation is not against the principle of causality.Many parts which act as cause to produce one effect have the power to create novel forms, and these forms are a kind of perfection that did not exist in its scattered parts. Actuality is also greater than Possibility, and your notion of creation involves the latter causing the former, which is the lesser causing the greater as you call it. The problem with your application of the principle of causality to creation is that you wish to assert the fabulous idea of creation from Pure Act of Being while insisting that Pure Act of Being could be reduced from potentiality to actuality without a further cause or actuality which was the principle requirement by which you arrived at your contradictory conclusion.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza