On Logic and Alternate Universes

[bennyboy]

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If you don't see why two things and two things aren't five things then there's no hope for you.

OFC I see why two things and two things isn't five things, in this universe.  However, in a universe in which two things plus two things -was- five things..it would be similarly easy to see that it was, in fact, five things.

The universe is irrelevant.

Obviously not, since at least one difference between our universe and the hypothetical universe is that here, 2+2=4, and there 2+2=5.

Two things and two things are not five things.

Not here, ofc.  

If another thing pops into existence that's just another thing popping into existence, two things and two things are still four things, four things are still four things, five things are still five things, A=A.

There is no such thing as four things in a universe where two and two is five.  Their math would reflect that anytime two things are added to two things, you have five things..because that's what happens in their, hyporthetical universe.  Just as our math reflects that adding two things to two things gives you four things.  

Just accept this and move on..so that you can finally speak to the actual question, lol.

If you think any universe can be hypotehsized where A=A then I'm not the one with slipping sanity.

I didn't propose such a universe, though I allowed that a hypothetical world in which our rules don;t apply -could be-.  In my universe, I explicitly appealed to identity, and the identity of the sum of two plus two..in that universe, is five.  Not four.  Five.  Even if the law of identity holds in that universe, 2+2=5.  That's just how that universe is, in the hypothetical.

Although in all honesty I think you just don't understand the law of identity. A=A is absolute in all universes. It's not about labels, it's absolute in all universes. Those universes don't have to be existent, they can be possible, and hypothetical. A=A applies to everything. It's a logical absolute. It applies to all hypotheticals, yes, it applies to everything.

-that's nce, but since you and I agree, and since my example agrees....so what?  

You need to realize that there are hidden premises, implicit premises, in addition to the explicit ones written within the OP.

There's nothing hidden in my example.  2+2=5, in the hypothetical universe.  Are the rules that would lead to this being true logical rules?

The universality of the law of identity, Ham, is irrelevant.  Propose the question without it, and the question is what it is.  Propose the question with it, and it's still the same question.  Argue, endlessly, about the universality of identity....with people who agree with you on that count, no less... and you aren't even discussing the question.

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Case in point.   You aren't really talking about a universe in which 2+2 = 5.  You are talking about a universe in which math is not math.  You might as well talk about a universe in which apples are oranges, and in which red is blue.

You can say that there are different colors, that we can't even experience here, in that other universe.  But if there's red-- it's red.  Similarly, you could have strange rules where the math is goofy.  But it wouldn't be 2 + 2 = 5.  It would be booble $ dweeble @ dwoobie.  It could NOT share our function of addition, because such a system would not HAVE addition, any more than we have a sensible /0.

Here's you guys: