Moohahaha, I mean welcome to the forum, i will be glad to try and answer your questions! This looks like lots of fun!!
That said i will answer your questions anyway, just remember to look at the answers through this lens or they maynot make sense at first.
So to dispell your term completely "religion of the book" is an intellectually dishonest construct used to encapsulate the religion to one specific form of written communication, when in fact history bears out the religion is based on several different forms of written communication including but not limited to a book.
So to ask your question, is to commit a logical fallacy of begging the question. As you wrongly predetermine and set parameters to the historical context of Christianity that is not accurate nor does it reflect how Christianity evolved from hand written papyrus and Parchment scrolls to 'books' that would necessitate a printing press.
The same way Judaism did.
It was written out and the word read/preserved though formal readings.
(ironically how it was done up to the point the printing press put a book in everyone's hand.)
To directly answer your question:
Paul teaches us that All scripture is God breathed and is good for use in the life of a follower 2Tim3:16.
The idea being if all scripture is God breathed then who are we/any of us to change it?
Your next few question identify the passages where Christ Himself admonishes the pharisees for teaching 'tradition' rather than from scripture.
2 timothy minus the the word book, again that is a modern term describing the vessel the scripture is recorded in. the content of said book is what is being perserved in 2 Tim. Jesus Himself takes a similar position in mark 7 by putting the written word of God over the religious rules created by the Pharisaical hierarchy.
13 So you are teaching that it is not important to do what God said. You think it is more important to follow those traditions you have, which you pass on to others. And you do many things like that.” similar lesson is taught by Christ in Mat 15. (where the 'church' of his day or rather their version of the pope's infallible rules are Challenged and cast aside by Christ in favor for the written word found in Scripture.)
Read the rest of the chapter..
3 So you should obey them. Do everything they tell you to do. But their lives are not good examples for you to follow. They tell you to do things, but they don’t do those things themselves. 4 They make strict rules that are hard for people to obey. They try to force others to obey all their rules. But they themselves will not try to follow any of those rules.
5 “The only reason they do what they do is for other people to see them. They make the little Scripture boxes[a] they wear bigger and bigger. And they make the tassels on their prayer clothes long enough for people to notice them. 6 These men love to have the places of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues. 7 They love for people to show respect to them in the marketplaces and to call them ‘Teacher.’
8 “But you must not be called ‘Teacher.’ You are all equal as brothers and sisters. You have only one Teacher. 9 And don’t call anyone on earth ‘Father.’ You have one Father. He is in heaven. 10 And you should not be called ‘Master.’ You have only one Master, the Messiah. 11 Whoever serves you like a servant is the greatest among you. 12 People who think they are better than others will be made humble. But people who humble themselves will be made great.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV
You really need to keep reading.. the chapter
In short Christ does not say obey them because they have done anything right or they are good examples, but obey them because that is your lot. That is what you have been given over to do right or wrong. In turn Christ also says because their lot was to lead you properly and they lead you astray they will be judged harshly and accordingly.
13 “It will be bad for you teachers of the law and you Pharisees! You are hypocrites! You close the way for people to enter God’s kingdom. You yourselves don’t enter, and you stop those who are trying to enter. 14 [c]
15 “It will be bad for you teachers of the law and you Pharisees! You are hypocrites. You travel across the seas and across different countries to find one person who will follow your ways. When you find that person, you make him worse than you are. And you are so bad that you belong in hell!
16 “It will be bad for you teachers of the law and you Pharisees! You guide the people, but you are blind. You say, ‘If anyone uses the name of the Temple to make a promise, that means nothing. But anyone who uses the gold that is in the Temple to make a promise must keep that promise.’ 17 You are blind fools! Can’t you see that the Temple is greater than the gold on it? It’s the Temple that makes the gold holy!
18 “And you say, ‘If anyone uses the altar to make a promise, that means nothing. But anyone who uses the gift on the altar to make a promise must keep that promise.’ 19 You are blind! Can’t you see that the altar is greater than any gift on it? It’s the altar that makes the gift holy! 20 Whoever uses the altar to make a promise is really using the altar and everything on the altar. 21 And anyone who uses the Temple to make a promise is really using the Temple and God, who lives in it. 22 Whoever uses heaven to make a promise is using God’s throne and the one who is seated on it.
In effect Christ is giving the pharisees slack enough to make a noose to hang themselves with it before God. Which is the warning to other "Church leaders" who would also make laws that contradict what the written word says. IDK maybe stuff like: praying to mary/saints, immaculate conception, papal infallibility, indulgences ect..
Col2 is about Paul refuting the teachings of peter that said all Christians my be converted to Judaism first, and physically circumcised then converted to Christianity. (so much for either peter being the first pope or papal infallibility)
The 'oral traditions' being identified by paul in the text was an attempt at a church leader/Peter interjecting something new to the gospel, (another step to be saved.) then Paul shuts that idea down. (kinda got to read the book for all of that or at least the chapter.)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV
Not seeing it in the english or the sport.
From the greek:
2:15 ἄρα οὖν ἀδελφοί στήκετε καὶ κρατεῖτε τὰς παραδόσεις ἃς ἐδιδάχθητε εἴτε διὰ λόγου εἴτε δι’ ἐπιστολῆς ἡμῶν
g3056 λόγος logos =Word. Meaning:
of speech
a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
what someone has said
and the the second word:
g199 ἐπιστολή epistolē =epistle. Meaning:
ἐπιστολή epistolḗ, ep-is-tol-ay'; from G1989; a written message:—"epistle," letter.
No where in the text is the word tradition uttered. Paul is communicating to his congregation to only follow what they heard him say and what what he wrote to them. Nothing else.
Not traditions.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV
So that no single base of power can be established.
God knew if he gave us one set of rules we would corrupt it as the Jews did. the hierarchy would become corrupt and power mad, and send this world into a dark age.. Which is exactly what happened until someone pointed out that God wanted the opposite.
In the parable of the talents, Christ explain why we have so many different denominations.
In that we are not all given the same 'talent' understanding of Him and how the Kingdom works. It is from our multifaceted POV's that we must cobble together the absolute best way for us given what we have been given/understand about Him. As that is our Greatest command. Love our lord God with all of our heart, Spirit, Mind and Strength. in essence with all of our being. This is the polar opposite to the commands and command structure he gave the Jews (and what the R/C church is trying to recreate).
Now because we are all different yet must conform to this single command our worship must be tailored to fit our different strengths. Where ever there is a disagreement on what is the strongest way to worship God, there is yet another schism so that both can worship with all of their being.
All because God does not create man equaly. To some he gives much and much is expected to others he gives little and little is expected, to all he gave the command to love Him with all that we are. That means our worship must be different if we are to obey this greatest of commands.
Because a weak man can not worship the same way a strong man worship and still worship to the greatest command level.
Because the term 'catholic' did not indicate a specific denomination as it does now, but a single collective of separate but unified believers at the time.
because the 'church' hid the original Greek texts away and created the Septuagint which is completely different from the Greek. Luther was a monk who had access to the Greek. Plus there was the fact that the 'church' burned anyone and their family alive at the stake for challenging them. What kept ML from this fate was nailing his treatus to the church door which threw the community into a tail spin that demanded that his challenges be answered rather than just being burned as a heretic (as his reputation of being the most pious of the priest hood in his region proceeded him.)
Wow that was fun, do you have any follow ups?
(way better than talking politics)
(November 8, 2016 at 4:09 pm)Edward John Wrote: Welcome to the Catholic VS Protestant Discussion Thread on atheist forum! This thread is all about debating which form of Christianity is true, Catholic or Protestant. Feel free to discuss any topic relating to Catholicism or Protestantism(all denominations 33,000+ Welcome!)for or against arguments.First let me say, I don't think either is the 'true form of Christianity.' (meaning a 'true' singular religious denomination) Nor do I think that any of us have the right to call ourselves 'Christians.' Only Jesus Gets to decide who is and is not Christian. He is not a respecter of the titles we take or award ourselves with. One is either a follower of Christ or he is not in this life. Whether or not that saves us in the end is up to Christ alone.
That said i will answer your questions anyway, just remember to look at the answers through this lens or they maynot make sense at first.
Quote:I Catholic will start this off. Questions Catholics usually ask protestants. There’s more to it than just these.Because a 'book' is a modern term that necessitates the advent of the printing press. In truth "the Following" is based on the written word. Books, scrolls, letters they are just vessels in which the words are written.
· If Jesus intended for Christianity to be exclusively a “religion of the book,” why did He wait 1400 years before showing somebody how to build a printing press?
So to dispell your term completely "religion of the book" is an intellectually dishonest construct used to encapsulate the religion to one specific form of written communication, when in fact history bears out the religion is based on several different forms of written communication including but not limited to a book.
So to ask your question, is to commit a logical fallacy of begging the question. As you wrongly predetermine and set parameters to the historical context of Christianity that is not accurate nor does it reflect how Christianity evolved from hand written papyrus and Parchment scrolls to 'books' that would necessitate a printing press.
Quote:· If Christianity is a “book religion,” how did it flourish during the first 1500 years of Church history when the vast majority of people were illiterate?again in your form your question fallaciously "beggs the question" but if ask the question using the term 'written religion' instead the answer is as follows:
The same way Judaism did.
It was written out and the word read/preserved though formal readings.
(ironically how it was done up to the point the printing press put a book in everyone's hand.)
Quote:· Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book? The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not taught anywhere in the Bible.The doctrine of sola scriptura was to combat the equally erroneous doctrine that establishes a Pharisaical hierarchy that allows subsequent church leaders to contradict the teachings of Christ or the Apostles.
To directly answer your question:
Paul teaches us that All scripture is God breathed and is good for use in the life of a follower 2Tim3:16.
The idea being if all scripture is God breathed then who are we/any of us to change it?
Your next few question identify the passages where Christ Himself admonishes the pharisees for teaching 'tradition' rather than from scripture.
Quote:· Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?
2 timothy minus the the word book, again that is a modern term describing the vessel the scripture is recorded in. the content of said book is what is being perserved in 2 Tim. Jesus Himself takes a similar position in mark 7 by putting the written word of God over the religious rules created by the Pharisaical hierarchy.
13 So you are teaching that it is not important to do what God said. You think it is more important to follow those traditions you have, which you pass on to others. And you do many things like that.” similar lesson is taught by Christ in Mat 15. (where the 'church' of his day or rather their version of the pope's infallible rules are Challenged and cast aside by Christ in favor for the written word found in Scripture.)
Quote:· Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible? (e.g., Is the Bible’s Table of Contents inspired?)the table of content
Quote:· some Protestants claim that Jesus condemned all oral tradition (e.g., Matt 15:3, 6; Mark 7:813).these verses do not support an oral tradition... Jesus is taking the pharisees to task about their oral traditions in contrast to what is written in Mat 15 and in Mark 7 (why do you do what is traditional, verses what is written.This what is being asked by Christ here)
Quote:If so, why does He bind His listeners to oral tradition by telling them to obey the scribes and Pharisees when they “sit on Moses’ seat” (Matt 23:2)? 5)
Read the rest of the chapter..
3 So you should obey them. Do everything they tell you to do. But their lives are not good examples for you to follow. They tell you to do things, but they don’t do those things themselves. 4 They make strict rules that are hard for people to obey. They try to force others to obey all their rules. But they themselves will not try to follow any of those rules.
5 “The only reason they do what they do is for other people to see them. They make the little Scripture boxes[a] they wear bigger and bigger. And they make the tassels on their prayer clothes long enough for people to notice them. 6 These men love to have the places of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues. 7 They love for people to show respect to them in the marketplaces and to call them ‘Teacher.’
8 “But you must not be called ‘Teacher.’ You are all equal as brothers and sisters. You have only one Teacher. 9 And don’t call anyone on earth ‘Father.’ You have one Father. He is in heaven. 10 And you should not be called ‘Master.’ You have only one Master, the Messiah. 11 Whoever serves you like a servant is the greatest among you. 12 People who think they are better than others will be made humble. But people who humble themselves will be made great.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV
You really need to keep reading.. the chapter
In short Christ does not say obey them because they have done anything right or they are good examples, but obey them because that is your lot. That is what you have been given over to do right or wrong. In turn Christ also says because their lot was to lead you properly and they lead you astray they will be judged harshly and accordingly.
13 “It will be bad for you teachers of the law and you Pharisees! You are hypocrites! You close the way for people to enter God’s kingdom. You yourselves don’t enter, and you stop those who are trying to enter. 14 [c]
15 “It will be bad for you teachers of the law and you Pharisees! You are hypocrites. You travel across the seas and across different countries to find one person who will follow your ways. When you find that person, you make him worse than you are. And you are so bad that you belong in hell!
16 “It will be bad for you teachers of the law and you Pharisees! You guide the people, but you are blind. You say, ‘If anyone uses the name of the Temple to make a promise, that means nothing. But anyone who uses the gold that is in the Temple to make a promise must keep that promise.’ 17 You are blind fools! Can’t you see that the Temple is greater than the gold on it? It’s the Temple that makes the gold holy!
18 “And you say, ‘If anyone uses the altar to make a promise, that means nothing. But anyone who uses the gift on the altar to make a promise must keep that promise.’ 19 You are blind! Can’t you see that the altar is greater than any gift on it? It’s the altar that makes the gift holy! 20 Whoever uses the altar to make a promise is really using the altar and everything on the altar. 21 And anyone who uses the Temple to make a promise is really using the Temple and God, who lives in it. 22 Whoever uses heaven to make a promise is using God’s throne and the one who is seated on it.
In effect Christ is giving the pharisees slack enough to make a noose to hang themselves with it before God. Which is the warning to other "Church leaders" who would also make laws that contradict what the written word says. IDK maybe stuff like: praying to mary/saints, immaculate conception, papal infallibility, indulgences ect..
Quote:Some Protestants claim that St. Paul condemned all oral tradition (Col 2:8).
Col2 is about Paul refuting the teachings of peter that said all Christians my be converted to Judaism first, and physically circumcised then converted to Christianity. (so much for either peter being the first pope or papal infallibility)
The 'oral traditions' being identified by paul in the text was an attempt at a church leader/Peter interjecting something new to the gospel, (another step to be saved.) then Paul shuts that idea down. (kinda got to read the book for all of that or at least the chapter.)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV
Quote:If so, why does he tell the Thessalonians to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter”(2 Thes 2:15) 14 God chose you to have that salvation. He chose you by using the Good News that we told you. You were chosen so that you can share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So, brothers and sisters, stand strong and continue to believe the teachings we gave you when we were there and by letter.
Not seeing it in the english or the sport.
From the greek:
2:15 ἄρα οὖν ἀδελφοί στήκετε καὶ κρατεῖτε τὰς παραδόσεις ἃς ἐδιδάχθητε εἴτε διὰ λόγου εἴτε δι’ ἐπιστολῆς ἡμῶν
g3056 λόγος logos =Word. Meaning:
of speech
a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
what someone has said
and the the second word:
g199 ἐπιστολή epistolē =epistle. Meaning:
ἐπιστολή epistolḗ, ep-is-tol-ay'; from G1989; a written message:—"epistle," letter.
No where in the text is the word tradition uttered. Paul is communicating to his congregation to only follow what they heard him say and what what he wrote to them. Nothing else.
Quote:and praises the Corinthians because they “hold firmly to the traditions” (1 Cor 11:2)?Again paul says follow my Logos or teachings
Not traditions.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=ERV
Quote:· If the meaning of the Bible is so clear—so easily interpreted—and if the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it for themselves, then why are there over 33,000 Protestant denominations, and millions of individual Protestants, all interpreting the Bible differently?
So that no single base of power can be established.
God knew if he gave us one set of rules we would corrupt it as the Jews did. the hierarchy would become corrupt and power mad, and send this world into a dark age.. Which is exactly what happened until someone pointed out that God wanted the opposite.
In the parable of the talents, Christ explain why we have so many different denominations.
In that we are not all given the same 'talent' understanding of Him and how the Kingdom works. It is from our multifaceted POV's that we must cobble together the absolute best way for us given what we have been given/understand about Him. As that is our Greatest command. Love our lord God with all of our heart, Spirit, Mind and Strength. in essence with all of our being. This is the polar opposite to the commands and command structure he gave the Jews (and what the R/C church is trying to recreate).
Now because we are all different yet must conform to this single command our worship must be tailored to fit our different strengths. Where ever there is a disagreement on what is the strongest way to worship God, there is yet another schism so that both can worship with all of their being.
All because God does not create man equaly. To some he gives much and much is expected to others he gives little and little is expected, to all he gave the command to love Him with all that we are. That means our worship must be different if we are to obey this greatest of commands.
Because a weak man can not worship the same way a strong man worship and still worship to the greatest command level.
Quote:· If the Bible is the only foundation and basis of Christian truth, why does the Bible itself say that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15)?Because the 'church' is not a religious organization, but the body of believers or the body of Christ. It is the individuals that are the foundation of truth because each one of us carries the gospel that will save the world. Not a title to a religious movement.
Quote:· Who in the Church had the authority to determine which books belonged in the New Testament canon and to make this decision binding on all Christians?The Holy Spirit has this authority. Not a person but God alone. As the bible is the Spirit inspired word.
Quote:If nobody has this authority, then can I remove or add books to the canon on my own authority?Not unless you are acting on behalf of the holy Spirit. Be careful on how you respond lest you flippantly take Him in vain.
Quote:Scriptura, why do the creeds of the early Church always say “we believe in the Holy Catholic Church,” and not “we believe in Holy Scripture”?
Because the term 'catholic' did not indicate a specific denomination as it does now, but a single collective of separate but unified believers at the time.
Quote:
Quote:If the Bible is as clear as Martin Luther claimed, why was he the first one to interpret it the way he did and why was he frustrated at the end of his life that “there are now as many doctrines as there are heads”?
because the 'church' hid the original Greek texts away and created the Septuagint which is completely different from the Greek. Luther was a monk who had access to the Greek. Plus there was the fact that the 'church' burned anyone and their family alive at the stake for challenging them. What kept ML from this fate was nailing his treatus to the church door which threw the community into a tail spin that demanded that his challenges be answered rather than just being burned as a heretic (as his reputation of being the most pious of the priest hood in his region proceeded him.)
Wow that was fun, do you have any follow ups?
(way better than talking politics)
